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January 20, 2006
Another Small Developer Cutting Corners
We swung by to take a look at the progress on the corner of Grand and Greene this weekend and then stopped in next door to chat with local salvage kingpin Eddie. What we learned was this: Three Saturday's ago Eddie had to call the fire department because the developer had, surprise, surprise, conducted the initial foundation excavation without the supervision of an engineer and, and a result, the handful of non-licensed workers on site had "compromised" the wall of his building by digging too far under it. So the fire department showed up and issued a Cease Work order and now supposedly things are being done by the book. We hope so. Work has resumed but our confidence level in what the finished product will look like is pretty low.
More Development in Eastern Clinton Hill [Brownstoner]
Comments
Here's a question for people based on this posting: do you think developers would do things by the book if they had more money to do their projects, or do developers have the money, but just cut corners because they can?
Posted by: Shahn Andersen at January 20, 2006 9:39 AM
These people are cheap a**holes with no regard for the law, building codes, worker safety, architecture or the community. They build the cheapest, worst-looking crap because they are total scumbags--not because they can't afford to do better.
They are ruining architectural heritage of Clinton Hill in their quest to turn a quick buck. The sad part is that they would make more money if they built something even halfway decent. Many of these sh*tty Fedders buildings don't even sell because they are so ugly. Then they turn into Section 8 rentals and bring things down even further. It's a sad spiral of greed and destruction.
I wish I could buy up every vacant lot around.
Posted by: clinton hillbilly at January 20, 2006 10:04 AM
Excuse my ignorance but why is this sort of thing less likely to happen in a more upscale locale like Brooklyn Heights or, say, the Upper East Side? Wealthier developers? The city pays more attention? More motivated community groups? Fate?
Posted by: TW at January 20, 2006 10:27 AM
The developer hired a General Contractor to do the project. The GC probably has hired another sub-contractor to do the foundation. I doubt that any developer is doing the job themselves, unless they happen to be a general contractor also.
So blaming the developer is pointless. It's like blaming Bstoner for the bad job his contractor did on his renovations. (as an example only, I don't want to imply that it happened)
Posted by: djr at January 20, 2006 10:30 AM
I think you are naive if you think the developer hasn't approved every aspect of the project, down to which bricks are picked and what price he is paying for them. If the developer is having the GC use a cheap sub-contractor and doing less than is required to cut corners, you can bet your ass that he is well aware of what is going on.
Posted by: Shahn Andersen at January 20, 2006 10:59 AM
Obviouly he is aware of what is going on right now, because the DOB has put a Stop Work Order in. I am just saying that assuming the developer "purposely tried to cut corners" by digging deeper than he should, does not make business sense. Before the foundation work start, the architect already specified how deep to dig. Nobody wants to go deeper than the neighbor's building, because you will have to do underpinning, which is expensive, but could be done if the cost is justified. Everybody wants their project to proceed smoothly without interruption and expenses of violations.
In this case the foundation contractor probably made a mistake, but to say that the developer did it on purpose, is stretching the truth.
Posted by: djr at January 20, 2006 11:29 AM
He didn't just dig deeper than he was supposed to, he did the digging without the oversight of an engineer and has possibly compromised the foundation of the adjacent building. He cut corners by not having an engineer do the job they are supposed to do. The plans from the DOB most certainly would have included some sort of structural engineering report on the adjacent foundation, and anyone gazing at those plans and then hiring someone to do the work would be well aware of that. That's where he cut corners.
Posted by: Shahn Andersen at January 20, 2006 11:41 AM
Exactly, Shahn.
Posted by: Brownstoner at January 20, 2006 12:00 PM
The developer did do it "on purpose" by hiring the cheapest, shoddiest contractor they could find and not making sure they were performing the work properly.
Blaming the developer is EXACTLY THE POINT--they are entirely responsible for every aspect of the project and they stand to profit from the sale of the completed building.
Cutting corners like this is totally reprehensible and completely par for the course with these sleazy developers.
Posted by: clinton hillbilly at January 20, 2006 12:00 PM
I think everybody ends up hiring a company and hoping for the best with these things. It's too bad there's no test or something for owners before DOB permits are issued. Just a lot of misinformation out there. Plus a lot of owners who think architects, construction site managers and the like are all just rip-offs. I don't actually think they are too cheap to hire these kinds of people, I think they honestly don't know what they are missing and they are too in to control to let go and delegate some major aspects of the work to an authority of any kind.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 20, 2006 12:44 PM
Um . . . developpers and contractors are often the same people. My dad, your brother in law, his sister's best friend. These are all small business people, this is not something that goes to an open bidding and Bovis and Parsons are battling for the project.
We wanted to buy a gorgeous old building recently. I met the owner. AND his contractor. Two buddies. Oh brother. What a team of dumbfx. I checked the building, it had a list of violations.
The upper east side only a couple of years ago lost the battle against a developper coming in a building a "loft" building on Madison and 91st. There are def monstrosities up in that area too. But communities DO FIGHT (and often DO WIN) to preserve old buildings more where the people who live there are lawyers or have the money to hire them and do the threatening and fighting.
I'm guessing.
Posted by: Monika at January 20, 2006 1:02 PM
The bottom line is that there's far too little protection for the property owners who have the misfortune to live adjacent to the projects of these cowboy developers and far too little oversight from governmental agencies like DOB. It's probably not economically viable for Eddie to sue these bastards but that would certainly be my first reaction. I would also call in the local politicos -- from Tish James on up the line. Also, are their local neighborhood organizations that can help? This kind of wreckless development must be resisted. I completely agree that low-cost construction imperils property values and quality of life for everyone in the area. In London, building codes really have teeth. My brother's neighbor dug out his backyard to a depth of 6 ft below grade, undermining both adjacent properties (and also probably posing many risks for the guy's own property). The local authorities are making him put it all back, wheelbarrow-full by wheelbarrow-full.
Posted by: Anon at January 20, 2006 1:31 PM
As far as I know, Eddie does a lot of demo work and comes by his merchandise quite honestly.
Posted by: clinton hillbilly at January 20, 2006 3:24 PM
I resent the comment from Anon 3:08. I own a brownstone on Grand Avenue and SOLD Eddie a set of doors that we no longer needed in our home. We are not crackheads who steal. Did you see the crackheads selling them to him or stealing these items? If not, then don't degrade Eddie and his business.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 20, 2006 4:05 PM
I resent the comment from Anon 3:08. I own a brownstone on Grand Avenue and SOLD Eddie a set of doors that we no longer needed in our home. We are not crackheads who steal. Did you see the crackheads selling them to him or stealing these items? If not, then don't degrade Eddie and his business.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 20, 2006 4:06 PM
Shaun, I think I could answer your Developer's money question with another question. Why does my dog insist on eating its own poop even though his dog bowl is always full of Merrick's "Napa Valley Picnic" organic dog food? As for the building problem, this kind of damage is happening all over Brooklyn and Queens. The problem is that you have all these ham handed cowboys who can't even read a set of plans, digging holes. Most of these buildings have 100 year old rubble stone foundations that require a delicate touch to underpin and pour a new foundation. Excavation work is THE most dangerous part of any building job. Many of these contractors are also the developers; Kind of like being a Brain Surgeon/Rocket Scientist. Thats why I never let dogs lick my face or why I never shake a Developer's hand.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 20, 2006 5:28 PM
Everyone who builds must know that cheapness can come back to haunt you, but it's a gamble some choose to take. When you're buying property at $1000+/sq.ft (Upper-east/Heights, etc..), you probably have your ducks in a row, and aren't going to try and scrape profits from cut corners.
Nevertheless, it is true that a well made beautiful building would in the long term end up being profitable, but I guess that's not their time line.
Posted by: dash at January 20, 2006 6:07 PM
where are the negative comments by Anon 3:08pm? did i miss something or is brownstoner engaging in censorship? i think when people make stupid, derogatory comments it's best to out them and show the world how truly ignorant they are....
Posted by: Anonymous at January 20, 2006 6:48 PM
I know a lot of you recent transplants to Brooklyn, and New York in general, suddenly feel empowered to cast judgements about small developers who are working to create better spaces in the built environment. While some of these developers do not understand the "modern aesthetic" or really do not have any sense of good design at all, I will still take a "fedders building" to a cracked out, boarded up shanty with prostitutes and needles strewn about the place. Again, you recent transplants do not remember when this was the norm in places like Clinton Hill and Bed Stuy, but also South Williamsburg and the Slope.
The developers that you label as "cowboys" obviously do not seek to undermine adjacent structures. What are you people crazy? Underpinning and foundations work is the hardest part of contruction, ask anyone who is informed, and they will tell you it is a difficult proceedure. Ask anyone in the construction field, from a small two-bit GC from Brooklyn to a major player like Tishman or Turner, receiving violations during construction is part and parcel of living in New York. This is a norm just as is receiving parking tickets. Any underpinning job, or piles job will have some effect on a neighboring structure, period. A good GC and/or developer will seek to minimize this impact.
Many of the "cowboys" you people reference, have held onto property in Clinton Hill and Bed Stuy through the rough years, when you were back in middle school in Jersey, or Commack, or Omaha, or whereever the hell you are from and where you were living relatively priveledged suburban lives.
If you naysayers are so offended by the actions of developers, buy some property yourself. Democracy and capitalism are really great. Put your money where your mouth is and set an example if you have a better way of adding to the built envrionment and a more efficient means for construction.
Posted by: Borough Rat at January 21, 2006 1:15 AM
I think you will find that a lot of us commenting on this development at the corner of Grand and Greene do own properties in the area and have undertaken either significant renovations or outright development. We aren't making these comments out of spite, but out of genuine concern and personal experience. It is expensive to develop properties, but it isn't rocket science. A quaility job isn't much more expensive than a shoddy one.
The history of Brooklyn is much longer than anyone who is alive today, and your argument that developers were a benefit to the borough by holding on to properties through the lean years is laughable. They were not developers then, but absentee landlords who waited for things to get better before they made any improvements.
Do you really believe that you are the only person who remembers when Brooklyn was a shit hole? It wasn't that long ago. I think most, if not all of us here do remember it. Do you remember it as a shithole from when squatters and their shanty villages took up half of East Brooklyn (Fort Greene and Clinton Hill) in 1858? Brooklyn has been through cycles of development and decay for generations, and they will no doubt continue. Don't try to invoke your memories of Brooklyn as a way to validate your argument, because there will always be someone with a longer memory that remembers a time when things were different than you remember it.
Posted by: Shahn Andersen at January 21, 2006 3:15 AM
Commack? Privileged? Only if you consider intense boredom and incredible ugliness privileges (in which case I totally understand your affection for the Fedders style).
Posted by: babs at January 21, 2006 9:11 AM
wow! go get'em shahn! awoken from a drunken stupor at 3am with an venomous tongue as her arsenal! well done! timber!!!!!
Posted by: Anonymous at January 21, 2006 12:25 PM
Um, Shahn is a guy dude.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 21, 2006 1:05 PM
The cinder blocks are looking totally sweet. I think they are going for methlab chic.
Posted by: grand ave action at January 21, 2006 4:24 PM
I agree with everything Borough Rat posted. He should start his own website. As somebody with considerable NYC construction experience, I agree with him completely.
Ordinary folks need places to live too, you lazy, armchair hogging bums! Not everybody cares about antique moldings, mantels, and carved ironwork. Most people just want a clean, safe place to live.
It's much more expensive to build "attractive" new construction than you backseat renovaters can possibly imagine. There's no comparison between renovating the inside of an existing brownstone and building from scratch. It's another ballgame entirely and none of you know anything of which you speak.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 23, 2006 7:24 PM
It's nice to see the shoddy developers supporting each other. Rather than a website, how about you create an organization for people who cut corners on their developments and those who LOVE those Fedders style buildings. It is expensive to develop, but we all know, you wouldn't be doing it if you weren't going to make a LOT of money doing it. How about you take a small percentage of those unconcionable profits and actually use it to make an attractive building rather than a hideous one that you will shit out and then abandon as you move on to the next neighborhood defacing project.
Posted by: Meryckawick at January 23, 2006 8:59 PM
wtf is scaproperties anyway? you people are void of any real knowledge. b-rat is spot on as is anon 7:24.
no one - even the most unscrupulous wants the neighboring building falling on them - wake up!
cutting corners and hiring unskilled labor is not the issue and likely the reason for at least part of the problem.
You fuel this site on pure speculation - come on - it doesn't have to be so ludacris.
It seems evident that this band of Clinton Hill Ghetto lovers are now experts on every aspect of construction right down to engineering. and you live in Clinton Hill because you frankly couldn't afford a more established nabe.
This ranting is so played out.
Oh, ah excuse me, Meryckawick (what planet are you from?), if you don't *buy* fedder covered crap, then it's not profitable to build it, duh. Perhaps there is also an economics expert on staff here that can explain this to you.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 25, 2006 3:43 AM
I wouldn't buy it, but idiots like you would. Economics at it's most basic level says that because you are too stupid to know better, you will buy a piece of crap that taints the neighborhood. As long as some dumbass is buying it, cut-rate developers will keep building it.
What planet am I from? I'm from Brooklyn interloper. Look up the name "Meryckawick" if you want a real lesson in Brooklyn history, it is the oldest name of Brooklyn.
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