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April 5, 2006
Fake Plastic Grass: It Wears the CPCC Out
What will they think of next? We received an email from the Cadman Park Community Council, the members of which are in quite a tizzy over the City's plans to throw down 1.5 acres of artificial turf on the main lawn as part of an upcoming renovation. The bad guy in this drama, according to the CPCC, is Councilman David Yassky (who had a hand in sinking 184 Kent's shot at landmarking). According to the CPCC literature, the Parks Department, under the stewardship of Yassky, is dropping about $3 million to renovate just a third of the park. The CPCC claims that thousands of area residents registered their disapproval in signed petitions last year but have been ignored. Is there another side to this story or will Yassky forever be known as the anti-grass candidate?
Cadman Plaza [NYC Parks & Rec] GMAP
Comments
nice radiohead reference
Posted by: will at April 5, 2006 9:41 AM
The problem that CPCC doesnt want to face is that the choice isnt grass vs. turf, it is grass vs. dust - You are just not going to get grass to grow there unless you spend a fortune (re-grade the whole park and install sprinklers) and significantly restrict use (no soccer for example).
Posted by: David at April 5, 2006 9:48 AM
As a Brooklyn Heights resident, I think Yassky has been okay on a lot of issues (limited height on new bridge park and dumbo construction, etc). This is really a Parks thing.
There are so many things that are wrong about this new turf. Here's just one: that area is a dog run in the morning and afterwork time. I think they even let them off leash before 9AM. Dog poop doesn't wipe off that plastic grass.
But that park is also used as a playground and soccer field for all the (private) school kids around there. I sense that while we're signing petitions in front of Connecticut Muffin, people with bigger purses and talking directly to people who are actually involved in this.
Like all things, I feel that if they would have been upfront about this whole deal (there are 2 dog parks already/kids need a place to play soccer), maybe the community could have gotten behind the idea or a version of the idea. As it is, it stinks.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 5, 2006 9:53 AM
i agree with anon 9:53. there are enough places for dogs and not nearly enough for the kids. while i am a parent of two of those private school children and a dog owner, i just think that dog owners have to go somewhere else for once. the fake grass is perfect for the soccer playing kids or running month kids or just having another place for them to be outside exercising. i think it should be a NO DOG area, and if they are caught a major fine to the owner--like parking near a hydrant for drivers.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 5, 2006 10:04 AM
I guess I need to refine by post a little. (I'm 9:53) Even if they were to be more open to the pubic and make that area a legit play field, they shouldn't use the planned turf product. There are better products on the market. The stuff they plan on using is an environmental disaster and gets way way way too hot in the summertime.
Also, if they are planning on making it an official play space, they should bring it up to the community (and perhaps ask some of those private schools to kick in). Part of that space is a war memorial after all, and people may have thoughts about how that is handled.
Lastly, I am never in favor of saying one thing and doing another. If they were going to ban the dogs, they should have said so. But they assured people that that was not the case. So I think they need to stand by their word. I don't even have a dog!
Posted by: Anonymous at April 5, 2006 10:18 AM
While fake plastic grass reminds almost everyone of the awful Astro-Turf of yesteryear, the artficial "turf grass" used by the Parks Dept today is actually pretty nice. It's soft and comes with fake "dirt" as well! It may not be our ideal - real grass would be great, but the reality is that real grass will NOT survive. The issue here is that this area, with its extremely heavy use, will forever remain a dust bowl unless it's paved or fake-grassed. I vote fake grass. People should also recognize that the larger plan includes a jogging trail, complete resoration of the larger park (including Whitman, where they stage Court construction & parking currently), pedestrianizing Cadman Plaza East, restoration of the War Memorial, and pushing media vehicles out of the park and onto the streets. All said a BIG improvement.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 5, 2006 11:13 AM
NYC leash law...According to Section 161.05 of the New York City Health Code..
A person who owns, possesses or controls a dog shall not permit it to be in any public place or in any open or unfenced area abutting on a public place unless the dog is effectively restrained by a leash or chain not more than six feet long.
If dog-owners followed they letter of the law, they would not be able to walk their dogs off the leash at all. However, NYC Parks&Rec permits off-leash walking in Prospect Park, Fort Greene Park and DiMattina Park. There are dog runs in several brooklyn nabes.
All the Cadman Park dog owners who are complaining, never had a right to walk their dogs in Cadman Park off-leash in the first place. The area is not fenced in and is certainly a very public place(The court houses are a couple hundred feet away). Now you want to keep a privilege you never legally had??
Instead of complaining about the turf, why dont you folks organize yourselves and get a nice little dog run out of the deal.
Posted by: ItsAWrap at April 5, 2006 11:14 AM
dogs are allowed there on the leash, legally. the early hours off-leash tradition is neither here not there.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 5, 2006 11:21 AM
There's a HUGE dog park about a 1/4 mile away on Columbia Heights near Middagh Street.
This turf is in use on the baseball field on Columbia Street. It looks pretty good and feels great, and can be used for a lot of things by a lot of people...I'd love to have a space like that close by.
Posted by: anon at April 5, 2006 11:32 AM
I'm pretty sure that the dogs crap whether they are on the leash or not on the leash.
While it isn't an official dog park, that space is also not an official ball park and people don't have the "right" to play soccer there either so I think that argument falls flat.
The price of that fake grass is more than what it would cost to remake the lawn with actual grass and new drainage. It costs 3x as much as sod AND needs to be replaced every 8-10 years, and that's what the manufacturer says.
It also smells.
The debate isn't about dust vs plastic. It's about how best to spend the $2mm that has been set aside for renovation.
There is some chicken and egg thing here too. The people use that space as a soccer field and no grass grows. Maybe there is some link? Many of the people against the plan ("you folks" 11:14 mentions) hope to make soccer fields with the fake stuff and lay sod elsewhere with upgraded drainage. They could do that with less than the $2mm. There is no need for sprinklers. The Park Dept has water there.
But sure, fake grass is easier to maintain. Let's get some fake trees too while we're at it!
Posted by: Anonymous at April 5, 2006 11:43 AM
putting that astroturf around a war memorial is an outrage.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 5, 2006 11:47 AM
fake turf is all the rage now in home lawns. it's 3 times as expensive at least. also, it is just like laying down concrete for the environment: bad for sewer runoff, heats atmosphere instead of cools, produces no oxygen, etc. another thing, it stays bright green through winter at which time it looks toxic compared to everything else. this is a verry bad trend.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 5, 2006 11:57 AM
I'm sorry I even brought up the dogs! It's a tiny issue in a larger and more complicated debate. It's just one item where the city seems to be flat out lying about this project saying that the dogs can stay when in fact there is no chance they will.
The whole park renovation has been a disaster imo. Mostly because people in city government have lost the ability to speak straight these days.
I think comments ItsAWrap's are ridiculous. This entire project is only happening because of a very small group of citizens complaining. Now they are complaining some more in order to get the best possible park for all neighbors. They are fighting to make sure the tax dollars are spent responsibly. I'm sure it's easier to bash them on a blog, but people spend a lot of their free time trying to improve their neighborhoods. I appreciate their efforts.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 5, 2006 11:58 AM
Turf grass!!! It doesn't smell, I've spent hours upon hours at the Parade Grounds and I can attest to the fact that the stuff is great!
Posted by: anon at April 5, 2006 12:10 PM
Maybe I'm wrong but last I heard, new drainage, sod and approriate sprinkler/water was considerably more than the turf AND the maintainace exponentially higher; all the while it will still turn to dirt if it gets anywhere near the use (soccer etc..) it is getting now. But even if the cost for grass is less, are people really suggesting banning soccer, frisbee etc... in order to preserve a lawn? - EVERYONE would prefer real grass but the question is, is it practical for the uses that the park will endure.
BTW - Turf drains through (ie it is not like concrete), although yes it doesnt produce oxygen. As for the color and heat - please go see the field at Columbia and Atlantic before making such comments, this is not 1960's Astroturf...it looks like real grass (all year) unless you are virtually standing on it, it is soft and it doesnt reflect heat anymore than a regulat carpet would (ie more than real grass but considerably less than concrete or asphalt)
Posted by: David at April 5, 2006 12:19 PM
I agree that it is better than concrete. Was that my only other option?
Posted by: Anonymous at April 5, 2006 12:30 PM
Nope, your other realistic choice is dirt
Posted by: David at April 5, 2006 12:32 PM
I think this stuff is perfect for a baseball field and the Parade Grounds. Less perfect for this site. A field of it, fine. But that space has nice light. Grass would grow and did grow for a long time there, until it became St Anns playground.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 5, 2006 12:38 PM
I think this is just another example of how downtown brooklyn gets short-changed. If this were Manhattan, they would add drainage, sod it and rope it off for the summer like they did in Central Park which is used all the time and is no worse for the wear. Designate one part of this area for sports. Not the entire thing. This area is NOT a baseball field down by the BQE. It's downtown Brooklyn's only park and it should look like that.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 5, 2006 12:44 PM
The small group of community activists that initiated the park improvement efforts (Ken Fisher (later Yassky), BHA, Golden (later Markowitz), Yassky, Kaplan Foundation, and CB2 ) all put in substantive time and money over the past 10 years pushing Parks. Turf opponents have come out largely in response to this single issue that was integrated into the older community plan by Parks' in-house design team. It's VERY easy to de-rail these types of projects, especially when the community-at-large seems to be fighting itself. Just the type of things our elected officials quickly back away from (along with the money). Our community should be cautious about how they fight these fights, especially when City money is tight. The Parks Dept is NOT the most highly funded city agency, after all.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 5, 2006 1:04 PM
Anon @1:04 well despite your intelligent advice the opponents have already planned a rally @ 1pm on Sunday -
be prepared for a dust bowl for another couple of decades.
Posted by: David at April 5, 2006 1:10 PM
There's an article about the issue in today's Brooklyn Eagle. It starts:
‘Cadman Plastic Park’: Rally
Planned To Protest Artificial Turf
by Mary Frost (mfrost@brooklyneagle.net), published online 04-06-2006
CADMAN PLAZA — Banners of protest reading “Plastic Grass — Fuggedaboutit!” and “Honor Our Veterans” were hung last weekend on a chain-link barrier recently installed around heavily-used Cadman Plaza Park. In addition, the “Plaza” on the park’s identifying sign was taped over and replaced, to read “Cadman Plastic Park.”
“The neighborhood continues to be upset about plastic grass,” said a spokesperson for the Cadman Park Community Council (CPCC), which is opposed to the replacement of the sparse grass in the main rectangular field — originally designed to honor veterans of World War II — with artificial turf.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 5, 2006 2:53 PM
Brooklyn Heights has precious few places for people to play sports outdoors, and I've never seen grass on that field since I moved to the Heights in 1985.
Posted by: Montague Remsen Joralemon at April 5, 2006 3:19 PM
I can't even believe some of the comments in this discussion. What a sad state when real grass has to be defended. I have lived in the Heights for over twenty years. The lawn used to be fabulous. And no, the kids haven't ruined it. Kids play sports in real grass parks all over the US and the world. And no, the dogs don't hurt it at all. The only thing "play-wise" that hurt the lawn were the cleats that some of the pick-up adult teams wore.
The central problem is lack of maintenance. True, the Parks Dept. has a pathetic budget and they should get more but The Parks Dept has not only not maintained this park, they have destroyed it. They drive their trucks over it constantly, they run into the trees, they tar over the tree roots, they have completely destroyed the stonework and paths with ungodly amounts of rock salt. Why couldn't they use sand like they do everywhere else in the States when it snows. Or even the little pellets used in the rest of the neighborhood. It makes sense to spend a little more for the pellets instead of having to eventually spend millions to restore the stonework. They have never once in the time I've lived here done an honest attempt at reseeding or sodding. Neither have they aerated the lawn. Cadman doens't have to have sprinklers. NY gets much more rain than cities like London and Amsterdam that have stellar multi-use parks - and yes - everyone plays soccer on them and dogs run on them and people lay on them and on and on. The great sports fields of the world are real grass. When foreign teams come to the US they request that real grass fields be built over the artificial turf. Also, many sports teams and leagues are ripping the stuff up (National and American Leagues). EVen the new generation turf is highly unsafe in an unmonitored and unenclosed situation. Look at the Rams and all their staph problems which they passed on to the 49ers. Look at all the head injuries and muscle and ligament problems. By the way - hundreds of people cross from Cadman West to the Courthouse everyday throwing their cigarette butts and spitting and everything else. This stuff catches on fire. And it would be a toxic fire.
Plus in NYC which is getting particularly bad reviews for its air quality, we need every bit of greenery we can possibly have to mitigate the effects of the pollution. Grass is a much needed coolant in the city as well. Artificial turf heats up like a frying pan. Cadman Park is also a haven for many bird populations including the peregrine falcon and owls - yep I've seen them myself.
Furthermore, the beauty of this park is that EVERYONE CAN USE IT - it's a great old-fashioned park. Everyone doesn't have a second home in the country to go to on the weekend. This is the only place in the area where we can have a little nature. And by the way - there is a dedicated sports park being renovated just two blocks away on Tillary which will have a soccer and ball field and basketball court.
The great thing about Cadman is you can go there with your grandmother, your kids, your dog, your special needs brother, etc., etc. all at the same time. Wake up! We are so lucky to have a park like this. And if people in this neighborhood would pitch in a little money, we could keep it looking great and still let everyone use it.
Posted by: John at April 5, 2006 6:43 PM
No one is knocking real grass, nor is anyone saying that if the steps you outlined were undertaken grass wouldnt grow - its just that what you want (and what everyone would love) aint gona happen...
so if anti-turf protests are effective, CPP will remain a dust bowl and in the choice between dustbowl and turf for many turf wins.
BTW Cadman Plaza Park hasnt had a "fabulous lawn" in at least 15 years (I cant remember any furher back than that)
Posted by: David at April 5, 2006 6:57 PM
if turf goes in you will all regret it. a dustbowl would be better. anything alive is better.
Posted by: Tone at April 6, 2006 12:56 AM
Sorry, "Tone," but a dustbowl is NOT better. We lived within dust-storm-howling distance from the Parade Grounds for years--years during which I watched Our Tax $ @ Work putting in sod that would promptly die...if they fenced it to get established, the soccer players would just cut the fence and go in and play anyway. Once a dust storm arose that looked like that special-effects wall of angry sandstorm fX in the remake of "The Mummy"--it blotted out the sky. We used to grow potatoes on our windowsills. Now I am an organic gardener, Greenbelt proponent, and general ranter vs paveovers of any sort, but sometimes the "new, improved" pseudoturf really is better...
Posted by: Brenda from Flatbush at April 6, 2006 8:47 AM
Yassky supports his campaign chest! After all its going to take a lot of money to get the Crown Heights district. Why take a public park for private school use. Can't the parents just buy their own "gated" park.
Posted by: Deanna S. at April 6, 2006 10:43 AM
Thanks MontagueRemsenJoralemon for your comments. Anonymous and John don't know what they're talking about. I moved here in 1978 and there was grass. I began walking my dog in the park in 1994 and the grass grew so tall that the homeless could sleep in it without being seen.
Posted by: By Nature at April 6, 2006 10:53 AM
I have to weigh in on the dog issue - there ARE NOT a lot of places in Brooklyn Heights to take a dog - Hillside Dog Park is the only off leash area, and while its a fabulous resource for most, not all can use it for various reasons. And there is a sign on the fence at Cadman that specifies the 9 - 9 legitimate offleash option as it exists in most other City parks. There are FOUR, count 'em, FOUR very expensive children's playgrounds within a few blocks of Cadman, not to mention the Empire State Park which doesn't allow dogs at all, even on leash. While you may not like dogs, you will either have to accept that I pay taxes and have just as much right to recreate as you and your soccer-playing child do. If you don't like it, move to North Dakota where you and your get can have an entire state to play in without interacting with others.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 6, 2006 10:55 AM
Let me amend that last statement, there is the tiny dog run at State St. (next to the HUGE playgound), but it's really not big enough to swing a cat in and sadly indicative of the amount and quality of space usually allotted to offleash recreation.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 6, 2006 11:01 AM
As an owner of 2 dogs (and who has used Cadman Plaza Park often), let me say that the park shouldnt be rebuilt for dogs - and if it is rebuilt w/ Turf, dogs should be rightfully banned (CPP still has grass in front of Post Office and behind memorial). I love dogs and think that the city should accomodate dogs and there owners but Children and thier development are significantly more important than giving dog owners choices in dog parks. Hillside is probably the largest dog park in NYC (and maybe anywhere) and is certainly a large enough dedication of space for off-leash activities in the Downtown Brooklyn area.
By Nature you are right grass does grow (often very high) BUT only on the edges of what is essentially a bowl - the only time grass has ever grown in the middle is when some fluke weather comes that somehow precludes soccer etc... but allows grass to grow.
Lastly it is sort of irrelevant if grass ONCE grew there, it is clear from the last 10+ years that the city is not going to do what it takes to keep grass growing there - which again leaves you choice of dust bowl or turf.
Posted by: David at April 6, 2006 12:32 PM
Have to disagree - it will be a dust bowl if left to the underfunded Parks Dept., true enough. But Central Park would be a dust bowl under those circumstances as well. Enough people -including the dog recreationists and the soccer parents - have demonstrated willingness to fund a Conservancy similar to the one which keeps Central Park and Bryant Park green to maintain real grass at Cadman. When the plastic grass goes in and the chain link fence goes up effectively making it ONLY a playing field - it will be much more difficult to undo than doing it properly now will be. The Rally at one on Sunday should not be missed if you care about the quality of life in our neighborhood.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 6, 2006 12:42 PM
A Conservancy is a GREAT idea - but where was everyone for the last 10 years (before Yasskey et al got the funding for the upgrade) and if thats what the people really want then instead of having a rally, have a fund raiser - I am sure turnout will be far higher and if real war chest can be collected, I am sure Parks Dept will be alot more willing to listen (anything that helps lower their budget)
Posted by: David at April 6, 2006 12:53 PM
I love Brownstoner but maybe it wasn't such a good idea to post the Cadman people's complaints with Yassky without calling Yassky for comment.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 6, 2006 5:50 PM
Well, David, where have YOU been? We've been working on this for months - sounds like you've lived here as long as I have - I hope we can count on you for a big donation.
Mr. Yassky is aware of the petition and the opposition. I wish he had been more willing to work with us on a reasonable compromise - I believe his heart was in the right place when he got the money for the "renovation."
Posted by: Anonymous at April 6, 2006 10:39 PM
I dont live nearby (did years ago) but still work in the area.
And I'll donate if there is a real organization but then again I'm not that against the turf.
Posted by: David at April 7, 2006 9:41 AM
Turf v. grass v. dirt -
As a resident of 75 Henry, I watched as our healthy trees on Henry St. got cut down. As such, I have little faith in Brooklyn Height's conservation of trees, and it's parks. Cadman Plaza Park is just another example. What DUMBO had done with its parks is amazing (albeit mostly Two Trees Realty funded). Anyway, I keep reading about kids playing soccer in the park. Funny, but it seems like this war memorial park is just becoming a St Ann's private school play ground! Is a basketball hoop being hung on the memorial as well? Does Yassky have kids going to St Ann's? I wouldn't be surprised. As an adult who plays soccer, I would never think of playing in front of a war memorial. The idea of a war memorial is to remember, reflect and never forget what our veterns did for our country and how they must have suffered. It's not to remember where little johnny scored his first goal. Put some benches, tables, trees, flowers and walkways in the middle of the field and watch the grass grow. As for athletics, I'll continue going down to the park on Columbia St and kick the ball around. These St Ann's parents should be pushing for athletic fields on the Columbia street piers before Cadman Plaza. However, by the time that happens, their kids will be in Yale already.
As for playing soccer on dirt versus turf, I don't believe that the kids in Brazil have ever seen a blade of grass and look what they can do in the world of soccer!
Posted by: 75 Henry at April 7, 2006 12:06 PM
Stop these fools from putting in the plastic grass at all costs. I live in London, but know NYC well. In England we use grass surfaces, no restrictions on playing sports or dog walking, and care is low. In NYC you get 50% more annual rain than we do, so should have no problems keeping up a good grass surface. Likely that you will need a one-off soil treatment and rotovation and raking to decompact the soil and treat it for accumulated acid in a city envirtonment, but that is easy & cheap.
Plastic turf has a rubberised backing with risk of allergy and chemical release, it is sharp & cuts children's legs when they fall on it, and has to be cleaned and disinfected if dogs defacate on it - rain washes natural grass clean, but not the plastic muck. Plastic hosts no insect life and has no seed production, so is an envirnmental disaster to bird life.
Go ahead - wreck your environment with plastic if you must. We're sticking to our real grass over this side of the Atlantic!
Bob Baxter
Posted by: Robert Baxter at April 12, 2006 9:39 AM
"Montague Remsen Joralemon" wrote April 5, 2006 03:19 PM
"there is a dedicated sports park being renovated just two blocks away on Tillary which will have a soccer and ball field and basketball court".
It's two blocks away but in another district...St. Ann's might have to pay to use it. Anyone know?
Posted by: Sharon at April 12, 2006 11:37 AM
"David" wrote:
"Does Yassky have kids going to St Ann's?"
He does indeed. I just hung up w/ his office and his secretary confirmed it. She also said that "other schools" want to use Cadman for outdoor rec but when I aked her what other schools she couldn't name any.
Will someone who has the contact info for the newly-formed conservancy group please post it here?
Posted by: Sharon at April 12, 2006 11:38 AM
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