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April 4, 2006
House of the Day: 160 Maple Street
Since when is Citi Habitats in the Brooklyn brownstone game? We're not sure, but they can hold their heads high with this listing in Prospect Lefferts Gardens. This bay-front limestone two blocks from the park from under a million bucks is the kind of listing that makes PLG one of the few interesting plays left out there in the market. If you can look beyond some of the chintzy interior decoration, you'll see original parquet floors in perfect shape, pristine wood paneling and some lovely plaster moldings. The kitchen may not be a keeper, but it's certainly is in move-in condition from a functional standpoint. Sidestepping the same old PLG neighborhood debate, we'll be interested to hear how locals think this place stacks up to the rest of the nabe.
160 Maple Street [Citi Habitats] GMAP P*Shark
Comments
Gorgeous, gorgeous, gorgeous. Love the area, love the block.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 11:51 AM
From the limited pictures, it looks like all the kitchen would need to make it look nice would be new cabinet handles, new stone countertop and underhung sink, new faucet, new appliances, new backsplash (e.g. subway tiles.), new light fixtures and a paint job (remove the wallpaper borders near the ceiling).
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 11:59 AM
Looks like a winner to me. Certainly, needs cosmetic work, but the days of sub $1 million limestones on good blocks in PLG are nearly gone. This may be the last of its kind.
Posted by: glf at April 4, 2006 12:02 PM
Beautiful house! It seems to be in better shape than many of the more expensive PLG houses highlighted here recently. The decor doesn't have to be to a buyer's taste, that's what paint, new lighting, hardware, etc, is for. The details are gorgeous. The price certainly seems right. Unless it has some very large unseen problems, this one will be gone soon.
Posted by: Crown HeightsProud at April 4, 2006 12:08 PM
Beautiful house and block - very desirable. But, the sq footage w/o the English basement is probably around 2000, not the 4000+ shown in the add.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 12:21 PM
Looks pretty, but how big is it? Is it two floors and a finished basement? Three and a finished basement? Either way, even tacking on the finished basement to the square footage, seems physically impossible for it to be 4140 sf as agent claims, since footprint is 20 x 47.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 12:21 PM
This has been on the market for about 2 months now. Was listed at 925K then raised to 975K after a week, and has sat on the market since then. There have been open houses almost every weekend. (Same as the brownstone on the block for 950K that was featured here not too long ago.)
As for price, 975K seems like a reach. No 2 story limestone has every sold in LM for this much. The only things that have neared the 1M mark are the "triple-mint" 3 story limestones on Midwood and one or two 4 story townhouses in superb condition. I heard the owners got offers at 925K the first weekend--they should have taken them.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 12:23 PM
Sorry, in my 12:33 post I meant to say "the only houses that have gone OVER the 1M mark..." Houses like this one have been selling in the high 800's to low 900's, except for one that had an incredible renovation with central air and the whole nine yards.
As for size, it does have a 2 story extension, but I believe the square footage is about 2,300.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 12:27 PM
Geez, when you're selling at $975K, what difference does $50K make? I agree, they should have taken the 925K. Maybe they're not in a hurry to sell. It looks like a great buy nevertheless.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 12:28 PM
Houses on this block (which is beautiful and full of families) are generally two floors with a basement. There is no way the two floors alone are 4,000 sq. feet. The public rooms are spacious and lovely, and the bedrooms are lovely, but two of them are generally very small (fine for a nursery, or a kid, but not room for much other than a crib/small bed and a small dresser; I would be suprised if they are more than 6 feet wide.).
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 12:28 PM
Yes, I looked at these houses back when they were just a tad under $500k... it wasn't the neighborhood debate that kept me from buying, but the size of the second and third bedrooms. The reception rooms are spacious and airy, more so than many of the houses where I ended up buying (Victorian Flatbush) - but I just couldn't imagine imprisoning my kids in those tiny bedrooms for the next fifteen or so years...
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 12:49 PM
"I just couldn't imagine imprisoning my kids in those tiny bedrooms for the next fifteen or so years..."
smug much?
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 1:00 PM
I wouldn't spend this much for the area, but the bedroom issue seems a bit silly. The house is 20 foot wide, so the "side bedroom" should be the same width as in any townshouse.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 1:01 PM
these are the same jokers who baked cookies and post on this blog under anonymous (probably the first two posts on this thread)
the house is over priced for a lot of reasons ...
780k will get it done ... it is a beautiful block though ...
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 1:17 PM
don't buyers and sellers generally count an english basement as usable square footage as long as its 50% or more above ground? Not sure if this is or not from the pictures. Maybe someone knows.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 1:19 PM
if it's 50% above grd don't think it's considered a basement. regardless, a finished basement is still a finished basement. (1) sitting directly on cold ground, (2) means you lose whatever the value is of basement storage. Worth something, but not as much as an a nonbasement floor.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 1:28 PM
"don't buyers and sellers generally count an english basement as usable square footage as long as its 50% or more above ground?"
That is correct, according to the NYC Building Code 50% of finished space has to be above CURB LEVEL to be counted as a "story" or basement rather than a cellar. In these houses it seems to me that it is not. The houses down the block however which have windows in the basement seem to be more than 50% above curb level.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 1:35 PM
Comment at 1:28
By that logic any first floor of a building that is slab on grade should not be counted as building area, or should be considered as inferior space.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 1:43 PM
With respect to the bedroom issue being "silly", you also have to remember that these homes only have two floors, while many other brownstones have at least three (and thus, more "full size" bedrooms). I think it does make a difference when you are talking about older children with desks, etc. In larger (taller) brownstones, most people I know use the smaller bedrooms as a room for a desk, additional storage, etc. Although I am sure it is possible, most homes I have seen outside PLG/LM do not use them for separate bedrooms unto themselves. These homes are still great, so I am not trying to stir the pot, just pointing out a consideration if you are spending $1 MM (with no rental income) and have kids.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 1:44 PM
When I read 'english basement' - I take it to mean more than 50% is below curb level - but partly above. If more than 50% were above - they would be calling garden level ( although NYC bldg dept may refer as basement level).
English basement would not be legal bedroom space but when finished sometimes called 'recreation'.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 1:48 PM
anon 1:43. Yes. That building does not have a basement, which is a strike against its value, and having the first floor on a slab would be less valuable than a first floor that is not on a slab and has a basement under it.
Just because you dig out a basement, pour concrete and lay carpet does not make the space as desirable, and therefore as valuable, as if the house had been built with an additional story. But the agent would have you believe that it is.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 2:09 PM
An English Basement is 50% above grade but with the boiler and no basement below. A "garden" level has a basement below it (with the boiler, etc.). I have a finished english basement and it makes a fine rec room. But it is dark, damp, and a bit chilly--certainly not quality living space. This house's basement is not 50% above grade, so it should definitely not count.
There's no floorplan for this house, but it seems that the second floor extension is only accessible from the large rear bedroom. That is awully awkward. It works with one kid (they'd get a bedroom and a play room and the 2 side rooms could be offices), but with more than one kid this would be ahard to organize. Love the dining room!
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 2:10 PM
Anyone with more than two children, even one, I would argue, would feel cramped in one of these houses. These bedrooms might be fine as nurseries or for toddlers, but it is not smug to say that I chose to spend my money on something (I consider to be) better for my childrenm and I am just passing on my experience to others who may be house shopping. Small children grow into large, often loud teenagers (and if you want to get into the whole how safe is PLG issue, that's a whole other thread when it comes to giving your teenagers a little freedom). Furthermore, on the house tour last year, there were several of these homes featured and more than one had given over one of these postage stamp bedrooms to make a large bathroom. I did not get the impression that the owners of any of the I believe three homes of this type on the tour were homes to families with children. If I was childless, or committed to having only one child, I would love one of these houses. But there is nothing smug about saying that if your money can buy a bigger bedroom for your growing child, perhaps that's something you should take into consideration before plunking down almost $1 million.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 2:13 PM
"But there is nothing smug about saying that if your money can buy a bigger bedroom for your growing child"
Come on. There is everything smug about saying that someone who chose differently from you is "imprisoning" their child.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 2:16 PM
brownies and cookies anyone. They're fresh from the oven,
Joker #1
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 2:24 PM
Come on, this ain't worth arguing over...
Posted by: Brownstoner at April 4, 2006 2:31 PM
I think this house would be fine with one or two little kids, but I agree that you'd probably want to move when they're older. My concern would be with investing this much in the area with the market in some state of flux and some signs of a decline already in these so-called "fringe" areas. I'd be worried that prices would drop in areas like this if the market does soften much more--and then you'd be stuck.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 2:36 PM
I think its safe to now assume that any thread having to do with Bedstuy or PLG is a guaranteed fight.
Posted by: stuy blkbuttrflie. at April 4, 2006 3:17 PM
I must be used to it already, but what fight are you refering to? The bickering about the ratio of bedroom size to a child's happiness is hardly a fight--and not at all related to PLG or BS.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 3:26 PM
no one ever said that this had anything to do with BS, it was an observation. you're well within your rights to disagree maybe bickering is different from fighting or arguing to you, maybe you can spend time digging through the semantics of how they all differ but as far as I'm concerned its a fight (figuratively). even brownstoner said its nothing to argue about and specifically said "Sidestepping the same old PLG neighborhood debate" because there's always a debate about this area thats just the way it is but maybe you missed that when you were all into the bedroom ratios.
Posted by: stuy blkbuttrflie. at April 4, 2006 3:36 PM
Anon 02:36 PM, the safest bet is to thoroughly research the area that you're buying in (i.e., the neighbors, the block, noisy churches nearby, etc). Then be prepared to batten down the hatches and stay put ('holding' is your exit strategy) during the downturn. This is a prime block in PLG/LM. I get the same 'feel' walking down this block that I get when I walk down prime blocks in Prospect Heights, Fort Greene, Clinton Hill, Park Slope, etc. There is a lot of 'pride of owership' on this block, and the next two or three over. Plus, it's proximity to Prospect Park can't be beat.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 3:48 PM
Any other opinions on how term 'English Basement' is used currently by realtors in Brooklyn?
What have houses you have seen described as having 'English basement'?
Have windows, contain mechanicals, lowest level, greater percent below grade level or above grade (curb) level?
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 3:51 PM
I lived in London in a basement apartment(legal) which had a full sized bay window and windows at the rear which were as large as the windows on the other floors. It has been my understanding that an English Basement is one where there is enough light and air to make habitation (rather than imprisonment - ha ha - since some people on this site have trouble with hyperbole as I found out from my above post)tolerable.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 3:56 PM
I am totally confused by basement vs. English basement. Is the term a Brooklyn thang?
Posted by: anonymous at April 4, 2006 4:01 PM
Seems to me that "English Basement" is used by brokers when the level they are referring to is NOT akin to a brownstone garden apartment. I've found that whenever a listing says it is an English basement, it is the same thing as the bottom-most floor (what people often refer to as the cellar or basement) where the boiler, electric and gas meters are located. Often, such equipment is hidden in such "English Basements" and sometimes they have small windows near the ceiling. They are usually finished and used as some sort of living space. This is just my experience of what an "English Basement" translates to when you see it in a listing for a Brooklyn house. I do NOT profess to know what it is really supposed to refer to, just what you can usually expect when you see a reference to one in a listing.
When a bottom floor of a building is more akin to the standard brownstone "garden apartment", it is usually referred to as the garden or ground level. Garden apartments are usually slightly below grade in the front, but on the same level as the ground in the back with a back door to the garden.
In other words, be suspicious of anything described as an "English Basement". It is probably a converted cellar. That may be ok for you, but don't be surprised, that's all.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 4:11 PM
agree. No agent worth the commission is going to say english basement when he can get away with saying garden.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 4:35 PM
I don't know where they get the square footage (4,140) on this place, even including the "finished basement). I live in a place that is almost 23 by 45, including the garden apartment but NOT including the cellar. It is a standard large brownstone. It can be said to have over 4000 square feet of space, but I would not count the cellar, despite the fact that it could be used as a "recreation room" as another 1000 sq. ft. plus living space. This place looks to be only 2 or three stories at most. Are these extremely wide or incredibly long houses?
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 4:48 PM
Most row houses in NYC have high stoops which lead to the parlour floor. Beneath that floor, under the stoop, as it were, is what we call the ground or garden floor. Originally, this was the kitchen, pantry, and sometimes dining room floor. The separate entrance was designed to accommodate the servants' coming and going, and to accept trade deliveries. This floor is at street level and is totally above grade. (Some people also call that the basement floor, which doesn't make sense to me.) Below this floor is the cellar, which is totally below the street, and holds the mechanicals of the building, and often has an unfinished dirt floor.
Houses termed English Basement usually have much lower stoops, usually only a couple of steps, so that the parlour floor is lower, and therefore the ground floor(garden)is also lower, and in the front of the house, is usually at least half below grade. The back is often above grade, as the yard has been lowered to accommodate. These houses do not have cellars below them, and at least a third of this floor is taken up with mechanicals. I assume the term English Basement derives from the English counterpart of these houses. Most English terraced row houses have these lower stoops.
If you are used to a traditional high stooped row house, the lack of a real cellar makes a big difference, especially in smaller houses such as this. The basement part of the EB house is certainly usable for many things, but is not legal for use as a separate apartment.
Posted by: CrownHeightsProud at April 4, 2006 4:50 PM
CHP, the only thing I don't think is correct about your post is where you say that the garden floor in a traditional high stooped row house is completely totally above grade. Almost without exception, you have to go down one or two steps as you enter below the stoop and the front windows begin about two or three fee up from the floor, at ground level. The rear is level with the back yard as you said.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 4:55 PM
Remember that in nearly all cases, the street level is now higher than it was when the houses were first built.
Posted by: slopey at April 4, 2006 6:01 PM
I always thought that houses with an English basement were ones like these on Parkside Ave. in PLG:
http://tinyurl.com/hqgnq
These houses do NOT have a stoop with an entrance under it. The main entrance is into a reception room in the front of the ground floor "English basement." The furnace, etc. is in the rear--there is no cellar underneath.
The 105 Benjamin Driesler-designed two story houses on Maple Street, and every other Lefferts Manor block, just west of Rogers Ave. are lovely houses IMO, but the lowest level is a plain basement, AFAIK not originally intended as living space. Since there are windows, these basements (unlike the windowless cellar in my own Midwood street three-story) can be made into attractive usable living space but calling them "English basements" is IMO RE puffery. True English basements are a rather unusual feature in Brooklyn (and Manhattan) row houses where (unlike London) high stoops--a throwback to our city's Dutch architectural heritage, predominate.
As to the question of the utility of the small hall bedrooms, this is a problem with most 20 ft. (or narrower) row houses. In my own case, we used the one with a connecting door to our own front bedroom as a nursery and moved our son to a larger rear bedroom when he got older. By the time he was a teenager, a second floor of bedrooms would have been VERY welcome--I'd imagine this is even more the case with families having more then one child--it must be great to give your kid(s) a whole floor. OTOH most NYC families raise their children in apartments considerably smaller than even a the smallest two story row house.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at April 4, 2006 6:02 PM
I own a three story townhouse, and the extra story does not really translate into more bedrooms. Unless you put a bedroom on the parlor floor (yuck) or on the garden level (too far away from the kids) you still only have one bedroom floor -unless ypou own a four story townhouse. That being said, to say that the only acceptable townhouse for a family is a four story one is ridiculous! Most families I know who own townhouses put the kids together in the big bedroom (mine is 20' wide). I have had homes in the suburbs and NYC, and kids sharing bedrooms is quite the norm. Remember Leave it to Beaver? Are we getting overly entitled, or what?
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 6:10 PM
It's like deja vu all over again and again and again.
I'm outta here
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 6:11 PM
CrownHeightsProud wrote "the basement part of the EB house is certainly usable for many things, but is not legal for use as a separate apartment".
Generally true, but the unique thing about Lefferts Manor is it's single-family covenant. Because of this (and R-2 zoning) a separate apartment, for better or worse, is NOT an option, even in a four story house.
To confuse things even more, I believe that at least one of the Parkside Ave English basement houses HAVE had that space legally converted to a separate apartment (Parkside Ave is in PLG, but not LM). That space (which I consider to be a true EB) is entirely above grade.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at April 4, 2006 6:12 PM
Anon 4:55, you are indeed right, and I stand corrected. I'd forgotten about that.
Bob, you are an invaluable source of knowlege. I have seen houses such as you cite in your first paragraph, we looked at a couple in Harlem once, but they had real cellars underneath. I guess we have to allow for exceptions to all rules.
Posted by: CrownHeightsProud at April 4, 2006 6:14 PM
At risk of beating a dead horse (and I am among those who LOVE these houses), I don't think the bedroom issue is about entitlement, or whether it is possible to raise children in a small, shared bedroom (of course it is!), but whether it is a consideration if you are paying $1 million for a home, which seems a very different issue. (That said, I am suprised they have had any trouble getting $950+ plus for this house.)
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 6:17 PM
VERY well said Anon. 6:10!
Many of us DO feel overly entitled.
In my own three story house, the extra floor also doesn't translate into extra bedrooms. However there ARE three story townhouses with two floors of bedrooms. Examples of these houses can be found on Midwood I in Lefferts Manor--there are three story brick colonial revival houses and Renaissance-revival limestones (like the one that went for $1.4 million last Summer) that have two bedroom floors. I always thought these houses were more practical then traditional three story houses like mine .
Posted by: B at April 4, 2006 6:26 PM
Whoops--I'm "B" 06:26
Posted by: Bob Marvin at April 4, 2006 6:28 PM
I don't see this as a Lefferts issue, but more of a living in a townhouse issue. So, you're a family with two kids and a million dollars to spend. You want to live in NYC, so what do you buy?
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 6:32 PM
As a survivor of an english basement in Washington, DC (where they are commonly used as rentals), I don't recommend they be used as living spaces. EBs are mostly below grade and tend to be damp and flood prone. They make good workshops and might be a good place for an extra bathroom.
An EB might solve the teenager problem when they bust out of the inhumanely small upstairs bedroom the wicked parent squeezed them into. Teenagers love dark, damp, airless rooms.
Posted by: bkborn at April 4, 2006 6:37 PM
I can't believe this house hasn't sold yet. I bet Brown Harris Stevens would have already sold it by now. $975K is clearly a bargain, even if it's only 3000 sq. ft. of usable space. That block is absolutely stunning - it's one of the most beautiful blocks in the city, let alone Brooklyn or PLG. Go check it out if you don't believe me. Meanwhile, if houses are going for less, it's just because there are Brokers and owners who aren't aware of their value with respect to the greater New York market.
Posted by: Ed at April 4, 2006 6:39 PM
I'd like to correct some misinformation I wrote earlier. After reading CrownHeightsProud's post about looking at a house similar to the Parkside Ave houses I mentioned,but with a full basement underneath, I got out my copy of "Bricks& Brownstones"(which I haven't looked at for at least 20 years)and realized that I had confused the terms "English basement" and "American front."
The Parkside Ave houses are American front*. The term "English basement "may still be puffery as used by RE salespeople, but my definition of the term was WRONG--sorry.
* According to "Bricks & Brownstones", by Charles Lockwood, (pp. 237--238) "In the 1890s, some New York row houses were built without the longstanding high stoop and the floorplan in which rooms opened off a long stair hallway. Under the new "American front" plan the doorway appeared in the center of the building one or two steps above the sidewalk level and opened ito a large reception room. which occupied the full width of the house. A large stairway...led to the parlors on the next floor".
Posted by: Bob Marvin at April 4, 2006 6:57 PM
I agree with Anon. 6:32 who wrote "I don't see this [small hall bedrooms] as a Lefferts issue, but more of a living in a townhouse issue".
Fortunately, I don't think anyone HAS taken this as a "Lefferts issue" (although FWIW it DID catch MY eye because the Maple St. house is in my beloved LM/PLG).
IMO the discussions on this blog about my neighborhood have been VERY civilized of late--something i find most gratifying
Posted by: Bob Marvin at April 4, 2006 7:04 PM
There are now three houses for sale on this block, I think -- the other two both FSBOs, and priced considerably lower than this one ($950K and $930K). They should have taken the $925K and run.
Posted by: babs at April 4, 2006 7:12 PM
I believe both the FSBOs have offers in on them.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 7:18 PM
Good for them! Now maybe this one can move too.
Posted by: babs at April 4, 2006 7:24 PM
The gimp lives in the English basement. eeeeurrggh
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 7:27 PM
156 Maple is in contract.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 7:27 PM
Well, MOSTLY civilized comments anyway, nowithstanding the last two brilliant contributions.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at April 4, 2006 7:56 PM
Must say this was a nice blog but no one mentioned the Gun shots that are so frequent in PLG/? why does no one bring up the drugs and crimes in these horrible areas? wake up people. This is real life.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 8:00 PM
Sunset Park IS a very attractive neighborhood IMO.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at April 4, 2006 8:01 PM
house is overpriced
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 8:40 PM
"OTOH most NYC families raise their children in apartments considerably smaller than even a the smallest two story row house."
Amen, Bob -- and sometimes they've paid MORE than $1M for those apartments.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 9:51 PM
Hey Anon 8:00 -
Maybe we'll all get lucky and one of those stray bullets will hit you in the head, you idiot!
Posted by: Ed at April 4, 2006 10:25 PM
For the record, 178 Maple (asking 950K) has an open house this weekend. Perhaps they do have an offer, but I don't think so. This is a lovely block, but ED, get real. These houses aren't selling at asking because many people don't want to pay that much for the area. Perhaps they're wrong, but don't pass it off on brokers. This house has had a prominent ad in the Times every sunday. I was at one of the open houses and it was packed. The problem is the price, not the broker.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2006 11:34 PM
I've seen all three houses currently for sale on Maple St., and they all are lovely in their individual ways. And they all are overpriced! I think there's general agreement on that. The sellers would have saved themselves a lot of effort and several weeks had they priced correctly to begin with.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 5, 2006 12:42 AM
Anon at 6:16 - the voice of reason!!!!
" I don't think the bedroom issue is about entitlement, or whether it is possible to raise children in a small, shared bedroom (of course it is!), but whether it is a consideration if you are paying $1 million for a home, which seems a very different issue."
Posted by: Anonymous at April 5, 2006 9:25 AM
Anyone who can consider buying any townhouse or freestanding frame house in Brooklyn in this market is entitled - period. This is who this forum is about. And if that just happens to be you, get over it.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 5, 2006 9:27 AM
I love the chip on the shoulder of those who toss around the "entitled" moniker all the time. You have know idea of the background of those who are on this thread and make assumptions that because they can entertain the asking price that they are entitled. I for one come from a very modest family and have worked hard through school and in my professional life, bought a small place in a good location years ago and have been able to trade up to a brownstone. Go watch V for Vendetta and plan a revolution if you have a such problem with the hard working types who would even consider buying in an area like PLG despite the quality of life issues.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 5, 2006 9:44 AM
Entitled refers to someone's attitude more than financial status. If you want to say that anyone who can afford a $1 million is wealthy (which we don't think is the case in NYC--it's all relative), that's one thing. But calling them entitled is a loaded value judgement that, unless you know the person well, you are unqualified to make.
Posted by: Brownstoner at April 5, 2006 9:45 AM
I am the poster who raised the issue of getting entitled. What I was refering to is a state of mind that believes that our children must each have their own room, and cannot be made to share a 20' wide bedroom. It is this attitude that leads to mcmansions and urban sprawl. It used to be the norm for kids to share bedrooms, in or out of the city. A 20' wide bedroom (as is found in many of the townhouses here in NYC, give or take a few feet) is not a small, or even smallish, bedroom.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 5, 2006 4:38 PM
sorry, I meant suburban sprawl.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 5, 2006 4:39 PM
Yes, the cost of living in NYC is more expensive than elsewhere, including part of the commuter belt, but we have made a choice to live here. We have the means to buy in a very expensive market, even if our purchases do not make us feel as though we are well-off sometimes. But how we spend our money is our choice, and we are fortunate to have that choice. If we would rather be less cash-poor, we could choose to live somewhere else.... We cannot cry poor or pretend that we are just regular middle-class Joe's when we have the cash to make such a jaw-droppingly expensive purchase. If our choices don't leave us feeling like we're well-off, well, that's our choice.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 5, 2006 7:51 PM
Although the horse may well be dead....
A "cellar" is 50% or more below grade and cannot legally be used for habitation. You can play down there, but you can't rent it.
A "basement" is not at grade, but is more than 50% above grade. It can be rented out--light and air okay--and usually but not always has a windowless cellar beneath it housing the mechanicals. This is also important for habitation, because if the mechanicals are in the basement (no cellar), a fire safe wall has to be built around it before it can be legally inhabited.
Garden floor is entered at grade or, at most, a step or two below. Legally habitable, and usually has a cellar beneath.
English basement, in Brooklyn, is a basement--and sometimes what would qualify as a cellar under the code--that is at or a step or two below grade, light, and airy, in a short rowhouse or brownstone. It's not as nice as the parlour floor (or as a garden floor), but it is very usable space and traditionally is used as the main living area, with bedrooms on the parlour floor and tenants on the second floor in short rowhouses.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 6, 2006 2:03 AM
That is a pretty pretty block but with a 7th grader, I'm not sure how much longer we could allow her to walk to that subway station. At that price, are there really offers? Are they from kids with babies who aren't yet thinking ahead to the freerange teens years? I'm leaning away from LG, even though it's beautiful. Just doesn't feel safe for kids who will soon chafe at being walked to the station by dad.
Posted by: anon at April 7, 2006 12:31 AM
Oh please, give me a break, anon 12:31. How is your 13 -14 year old kid going to survive in NYC period, if you've conditioned her to be too afraid to walk to the subway from her house? She needs to learn street smarts wherever she is, and frankly, if you feel that way, you should probably leave NYC all together.
And feel safe from whom? Hmmmmm.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 7, 2006 9:32 AM
Born and raised here. Same with the daughter. Stuff happens when they hit the MS years. They become bolder, and drama ensues. MS 51 kids have had a lot of trouble on 5th and 6th Aves in the Slope. There are a lot of H.S. drug dropout kids hanging out near the station at dismissal time on the PLG side of the park, and you can only be blind to it up until the time your kids reach that age.
I wouldn't leave the city for all the rice in China but I'm not taking unnecc. chances with the kid. You'll make your own choices with yours, I'm sure.
Posted by: anon 12:31 at April 7, 2006 9:39 AM
Hi - I grew up in this exact house. One of 6 children. We were all quite comfortable and enjoyed living there very much. I am just sad we sold it before the market went so sky high.
Posted by: anon at April 8, 2006 2:31 PM
You grew up in 160 Maple? Do tell more! I love hearing about the living history of a house.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 8, 2006 10:29 PM
What would you lke to know. The house was wonderful. We loved it. The neighborhood was a bit dicey in later years - probably starting in the 70's. Crime was certainly an issue then. But all in all the memories are very fond. My family owned the house for about 40 years. The early years were just great. I don't think we even locked our doors during the day for the first 10 or 15 years we lived there. The street was full of families with kids. Many of the houses had 4, 5, or 6 kids in them. We were all always out playing in the streets. Stoop ball, stick-ball, sewer-to-sewer football, whatever. There was never a lack of things to do or kids to play with. Every afternoon from the end of school until the street lights went on - the kids were out. The mothers would sit on one of the porches - very often 160 Maple and keep an eye on the kids while shelling peas or cutting green beans or whatever to get dinner ready. It was ideal. When we got older, in the winter we would walk up to the skating rink with our friends. In the spring we would walk over to the botanic gardens or the zoo or the park. At the time Flatbush Ave had good shopping. As middle school age girls, we could walk to Macy's on Flatbush or Sears to go shopping. There was also some good smaller stores around Church Ave and Flatbush that we would walk to and of course downtown was a quick subway or bus ride away. On weekend nights in high-school we could walk to Jahns the ice cream place on Church Ave to meet friends etc All in all a great place and time to grow up. Later it got dangerous. There were mugging incidents and much worse. Frankly it was sometimes scary. Lots of stories to tell there. But the block itself and the people living on that block were always a wondeful. My family lived there until the mid-90's.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 9, 2006 9:31 AM
Thanks for sharing your memories!
Posted by: Anonymous at April 14, 2006 12:10 AM
178 Maple (bigger garden) sold for 950K and it has a smaller bldg footprint than 160 Maple (smaller garden). Prices....who knows....is PLG over priced? Yes. No shopping, no schools.
Posted by: bedford at April 20, 2006 2:48 PM
178 Maple (bigger garden) sold for some silly price (think PT Barnum) and it has a smaller bldg footprint than 160 Maple (smaller garden). Prices....who knows....is PLG over priced? Yes. No shopping, no schools.
Posted by: bedford at April 20, 2006 2:49 PM
178 Maple recently sold for some silly price (think PT Barnum) and it has a smaller bldg footprint than 160 Maple. The asking prices for both were very, very close. Prices....who knows....is PLG over priced? Yes. No shopping, no schools, lovely limestone.
Posted by: bedford at April 20, 2006 2:52 PM
That was the Hopkins old house. I lived on that Block for 35 Years. All that money, and you cant travel more than a block in either direction safely.
Posted by: Chris at May 29, 2006 3:10 PM
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