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May 22, 2006
Baltic Bigtime: Negotiating a Tower in Boerum Hill
Last Tuesday, the developer, Joe Chan, met with concerned neighbors and politicians in David Yassky's office to discuss his plans for a 118-foot-tall, 48,000-square-foot tower at the corner of Baltic and Hoyt in Cobble Hill. The current plan calls for 36 condo units with 27 parking spaces in the basement, street level commercial and second-floor community facility. In addition to concers about size and scale, neighbors expressed their worries about safety and quality of life during the projected 14-month construction period. The developer was unable to answer a number of questions and the group agreed to convene again in early June.
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Comments
Those 11 floors should just blend right in to the neighborhood. What's everyone so worried about?
Posted by: Anon at May 22, 2006 10:33 AM
Baltic and Hoyt is Boerum Hill (or maybe Carroll Gardens although I think most people would disagree), but not Cobble Hill. CH stops at Court Street.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 22, 2006 10:36 AM
That's more like Boerum Hill, isn't it? Anyway it looks like a completely out of context concept....although it is nice to see someone putting so much faith in that location.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 22, 2006 10:40 AM
I believe this developer was responsible for the building that went up on the corner of Baltic and Smith (home to Bar Below). (I wish I had a photo on hand.) If that building is an example of his best work, the BHill community is about to get another ugly building on a block filled with new and old ugly buildings.
Posted by: crouchback at May 22, 2006 10:42 AM
Actually it will be perfectly in context with the neighborhood - the Gowanus Houses buildings - less than 50 yards away are similar (or taller) in size.
Posted by: David at May 22, 2006 10:44 AM
Actually, there are photos on Property Shark. Type in 209 Smith or 336 Baltic for example of prior work.
Posted by: crouchback at May 22, 2006 10:48 AM
Crouchback -- if that's true, the building must be stopped. That building is one of the ugliest new constructions for miles around. I have never seen the apartments inside, but the outside is just hideous. It's only saving grace is that the restaurant there (which is only so-so, imo) took over the set back and encased it in a structure that for now hides the setback that should never have been allowed in the first place.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 22, 2006 10:48 AM
I think that explains why some of locals are getting exercised.
Posted by: crouchback at May 22, 2006 10:56 AM
The photos are deceptive, this would be directly across the street from the dreaded Gowanus houses. While the building is way out of context & should be changed; it is interesting to see that this developer believes he can market new apts. this close to a NYCHA project.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 22, 2006 11:13 AM
To 11:13. According to Zillow, 2 of the 700 sqft apartments at 388-390 Warren Street (less than spitting distance from NYCHA houses) changed hands for approximately 520K in 2004. A 550 sqfooter went for 486K in 2004. I have no idea whether or not these were classified as 1 or 2 bedrooms. While the exterior of those buildings (warren street condos) are challenging to the eye, their saving grace is that they havea brownstone height/feel/density.
Posted by: crouchback at May 22, 2006 11:38 AM
"the BHill community is about to get another ugly building on a block filled with new and old ugly buildings"
Sounds like contextual development, then!
Posted by: linusvanpelt at May 22, 2006 11:41 AM
the "dreaded" gowanus houses - why? because they're ugly? I'm moving into a renovated brownstone on Douglass bet. Hoyt & Bond, at the back of the G. Houses. Sure they're ugly, but the rest of the nabe is great, or so the many folks I know who live in the area tell me. Is there something else I should know?
Posted by: Anonymous at May 22, 2006 12:28 PM
Isn't this site located right across the street from a high school? And not exactly a stellar one either.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 22, 2006 1:15 PM
Can anyone tell me how I find out details about these seemingly unpublicized meetings? I live on Warren btw. Hoyt/Smith (in the Warren Street buildings that crouchback described--not completely unfairly [tho not so nicely!] as somewhat ugly) and we have one of Mr. Chan's buildings already up (poorly-constructed) in our backyard. There's another one going up right next to it right now, but they're now apparently stuck at their third (at least) stop-work order (they've hired the worst construction company ever).
I have several questions for the developer. Can anyone fill us in??
Posted by: Cat at May 22, 2006 1:28 PM
linusvanpelt,
I was being facetious about the "dreaded" Gowanus Houses. This was in reference to earlier comments on this site about how scary they are; having lived within two blocks of the GH for thirteen years I have found them to be anything but.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 22, 2006 1:42 PM
Cat, I have heard about this from the following neighborhood associations. You can contact them for more info.
Carroll Gardens Association
201 Columbia St (btw sackett & Degraw Sts)
Phone: 718 243 9301
The Boerum Hill Association:
www.boerumhillbrooklyn.org
To the person who just moved in, go to a meeting if you're new in the neighborhood, it's a great way to get to know neighbors and issues. (Brownstoner, wouldn't it be great to add links to our neighborhood groups on your home page?)
Finally - this is technically in Carroll Gardens; Boerum Hill ends at Wyckoff or Warren St.
And my 2 cents - if this building looks anything like the one where FAAN is, it will be much uglier than the housing projects across the street.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 22, 2006 1:43 PM
Thanks for the good info about community groups. I'm the new person, and I look forward to getting to know the neighborhood. And thanks, anon 1:42, I thought you might be joking about "dreaded" but ya never know...
I like the idea of Bstoner linking to neighborhood groups.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 22, 2006 2:24 PM
To anonymous on Warren St. and anyone else interested:
Hello, I am the point person for the organizing against the tower.
Although the projects are just across the street, two things are different---one-no one would build like that now, two-the projects are on their own blocks, set back, and notice that those that are on the street are only four stories. Just because someone made huge ugly buildings 30 years ago does not mean we must allow it now.
The developer is not the builder of FAAN's building, Raymond Tung. He has sold it to the present developer, Joe Chan. I have a copy of the plans, and it is still an ugly mammoth.
Meetings have not been unpublicized. They were posted on local yahoo groups. There were flyers put on every door on Warren, Hoyt, Baltic and Butler and at the MET food and Laundromats, about May 9, community meeting to oppose this behemoth. The second meeting, May 16, was invitation only to adjacent neighbors and elected officials because we did not want to overwhelm the developer. He was surprised by the extent of the opposition.
I do not want to give out my email address, but if you are on either the Boerum hill, north slope or the Carroll Gardens yahoo group, I post announcements for all meetings, and minutes from them on those lists.
Up to now, Baltic, Butler and Douglass Sts between Court and Hoyt, have officially been part of Gowanus--not Boerum Hill or Carroll Gardens. However, at the May 9th meeting at the Cobble Hill High School, we were invited (for a second time) to join Carroll Gardens. Since we are in CB6 like them, it makes more sense than to join Boerum Hill in CB2. A vote of the 20 residents (mostly Baltic and Butler was taken, and we all thought it was a good idea. A delegation went to the next Carroll Gardens Association Mtg and we are now officially living in Carroll Gardens--shall we call ourselves Carroll Gardens North or Gowanus Heights, any other ideas?
Press conferences and rallies to come.
I will post more later.
Baltic rabble rouser
Posted by: baltic rabble at May 22, 2006 2:36 PM
A FEW FACTS
1. I have seen the drawings and this is an ugly building that will not fit into the community.
2. The bottom two floors are built full lot line to lot line so the neighbors can kiss goodbye to the "brownstone" feel.
3. A building this size can be built anywhere in Carroll Gardens, Boerum Hill, and Cobble Hill where the following takes place:
a. they are not in the historic district.
b. they have buildings on or near a corner or a wide street.
This should scare the heck out of everyone and I don't know why it hasn't. This is worse than Ratner because it is as of right.
This is the example that other developers will use to buy a few houses and do the same. Examples of properties that i can think of that fit the same profile:
1. The auto reapiar shop on Third and Smith.
2. The medical facility on court between Sackett and Union Street (this could be a truelly massive building that would divide the neighborhoods and create a shadow for blocks).
3. This site on Baltic Street
I am sure there are more. The solution for this is simple. The height regulations for the above mentioned neighborhoods need to be revised to keep this from happening and community facilities must count as floor areas in these neighborhoods (right now you can build an entire floor teh entire width and depth of the lot and it is allowable on any block and does not count as floor area).
SPEAK UP EVERYONE! IT MAY ALREADY BE TOO LATE!
Posted by: crazy at May 22, 2006 2:47 PM
A few other facts
11 stories is not a "tower"
11 story buildings do not cast shadows for "blocks"
Building the front to the 'lot line' is the appropriate way to build so as to maintain the street wall.
Posted by: David at May 22, 2006 3:22 PM
get your facts straight....Use groups 3 and 4 of the zoning regulations (which medical offices or community facilities fall under) DO count as Floor Area. Sometimes in addition to, sometimes taken away from, the residential floor area.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 22, 2006 4:25 PM
The developer builds ugly buildings ... I agree there should be pressure from neighbors to make the building less ugly. The size, on the other hand, seems OK to me. Building out the the lot line is a GOOD thing, I think ... setbacks break up the street and are usually ugly.
New York needs housing, period. More is better.
Posted by: will at May 22, 2006 7:35 PM
Using the Community Facilites Bonus they get a Floor Area Ratio of 4.8% for that story, instead of 2.3% for the residential floors. They are not just building to the lot line in the FRONT, They are building to the lot line in the back as well. It will be visible from many blocks away and block light, sky for all of its neghbors. This block has backyards for all houses and this monster will change that completely. Because of the shape of the building, with setbacks and a thinner top than the bottom, it will LOOK like a tower even if you think 11 stories does not make it a tower.
Do those of you who think a building that tall is OK live in a townhouse block? Do you want this next to your house? Do you want 36 more families on your block?
The unique livable nature of Brooklyn comes from low rise buildings, backyards.
Posted by: baltic rabble at May 22, 2006 8:31 PM
I would certainly want an 11 story building (or taller) if I lived next to an empty lot; and across the street from another empty lot.
Yes I live in a townhouse and they are building 12 story buildings right down the street from me (70yards) - did I lose some of my view - yup - disappointing - yup - but such is life, my view is not ordained by god or law - I moved into an area that is growing and I moved down the block from an empty lot - that's how it goes.
What is wrong w/36 more families?? It creates more street life which adds to the community and safety.
No offense but you sound like the worst NIMBY advocate I have ever heard - it is an 11 story building for god sake - Virtually every brownstone neighborhood in this city has buildings as tall or taller within it, and people arent cast into perpetual darkness or a skyless pergatory - in fact no one even notices.
Stop being so selfish
Posted by: David at May 23, 2006 9:41 AM
This building is a HUGE mistake. There are plenty of large apartment buildings planned for the 4th Avenue Corrider. Plus there is our lovely Atlantic Yards.
One thing we ALL have to keep in mind is that large scale development in Brooklyn is a great thing, provided we don't destroy the low-scale residential quality of our brownstone neighborhoods.
If anything, we should be focused on getting rid of those projects near Hoyt Street and replacing that whole area with low-scale housing.
Posted by: Ed at May 23, 2006 4:05 PM
There is a lot of misinformation posted here about zoning, the neighborhood, etc.
If this building is as of right, which it appears to be, the community needs to work with the developer, but he is under no obligation to do so.
Unless there is a zoning change in the offing, which I dont think is under consideration for this site, it is unlikely you will get the developer to agree to build smaller (unless you offer him $). He will build as big as he can to make as much money as he can.
We had some success on DeGraw Street with the condo that went up between Court and Smith several years ago. The developer agreed to change the color of the brick and the look of the balconies. We also hired a land use lawyer to make sure his development adhered to the building and zoning regs.
My advice - keep lines of communication open and work with the developer. If you piss him off enough, he will walk away and build as cheaply as he think he can to maximize his return.
Posted by: bored at work at May 23, 2006 4:52 PM
Ed
- 11 story buildings are not "large scale development";
- a multitude of similar sized (approx 11 story) buildings did not destroy Brooklyn Heights and I am sure they wont destroy Boreum Hill
-There is nothing wrong with the projects from a housing point of view (people pay thousands to live in similarly designed 'projects' like Stuyvesant Town, PCV and Parkchester) and the issues that the projects have are not be rectified by changes in density (as the low density suburban South Central LA demonstrates)
Finally as Bored_at_Work said - this is all academic since the community (or posters here) have no say (thank god) on this as-of-right building proposal.
Posted by: David at May 23, 2006 5:28 PM
The Communities Facilities bonus is what aggravates me. Open to great abuse. Once bldg completed and can't find a suitable tenant under Community Use - they file for hardship and rent to whatever business they like.
That is the issue I would confront Yassky, Bldgs dept and Community Bd about. Who is going to rent that space? That will affect neighbors more than the 11 story residential bldg.
Otherwise this is not a townhouse or brownstone block. 5 houses at most. Mostly tenement apt bldgs plus the new addition of condo bldg that had apts selling for nearly $700k - so apparently people don't object to the projects too much. And a small HighSchool - which is very well-maintained and very attractive. Also a new playground.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 24, 2006 9:38 AM
The Four Borough
Neighborhood Preservation Alliance
Carroll Gardens Neighborhood Association
RALLY TO
PROTEST
OVERSIZE BUILDINGS
AND ABUSE OF
COMMUNITY FACILITES BONUS
Join your neighbors
to protest an eleven story luxury tower
“high-end Manhattan condos”
Speakers:
City Councilman Tony Avella -- Zoning and Franchises Subcommittee
Mike Ingui -- Architect
Robert Furman -- Four Borough Neighborhood Preservation Alliance
Saturday, May 27
11:30 AM
380 Baltic at Hoyt Street
Posted by: Baltic rabble at May 25, 2006 12:32 AM
I think community groups and council members should seek help to rewrite the zoning regs as they see fit and not torment those individuals who are trying to make a living building in this city. Lucky they weren't around to pander to the same community minded folks during the construction of the Williamsburg Savings bank building, The St. George hotel, etc, etc, etc,
Robert
Posted by: Robert Scarano at May 25, 2006 1:16 AM
To David, who is under the impression that Brooklyn Heights wasn't destroyed by over building... once upon a time, B.Heights was a real neighborhood with families and people of all ages, many had lived there generations. There was a real village feel to it. Take a look around now, it's full of doctor's and lawyer's offices cause they're the only ones who can afford the rent. Look at the daily traffic, the thousands of people walking thru their streets everyday. Believe it or not, people in the cities can enjoy the same quality of life as people in the suburbs (quiet and friendly) if they don't allow creed to take over! As some one who has spent their entire life in Boerum hill, I can say I hate the changes taking place to my sleepy village.
Posted by: oldtimer at June 13, 2007 11:25 AM
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