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June 1, 2006
Murder on Putnam: Will The Cops Show Up Now?
Long one of the biggest drug spots in the borough, the corner of Putnam and Grand has remained a big problem even as the values of the surrounding brownstones have tripled over the past 5 or 6 years. Living in the area for the past year, we've been amazed at the almost complete lack of police presence on the block. So it was not a huge surprise when we heard 10 or 12 gun shots at around 7 pm on Monday. Turns out that one of the frequent dice games which the drug dealers and their hangers-on play on the corner had gone bad. Three people were shot and two of them killed in the incident. We gather that two of them were from the immediate neighborhood and one from a little further out in Bed Stuy. We can only assume that the lone candle on the sidewalk is for one of them. We've been unable to find any mention in any of the local papers about the shootings.
When called about the incident, Letitia James has given her stump-speech line about how there are undercover cops on that corner all the time and that they're on the case. Right. How about a consistent uniformed police presence? We also realize that it's hard to make drug charges stick (a valid point someone made the last time we brought this topic up). Not to pick on Ms. James, who has done a good job in some other areas (she's certainly stuck by her guns on Atlantic Yards and has been very helpful to some neighborhood business owners we know), but she has failed quite miserably in marshalling the necessary resolve and resources to solve this particular problem. We doubt it's from lack of concern (heck, she lives within four blocks of the shootings) and suspect that she just has no sway or leverage over the police in her district and not enough pull in the Bloomberg administration to go over the precinct's head.
We are curious to hear from readers how they have addressed these kinds of problems in their own neighborhoods. It occurs to us that a good place to start is to contact Councilwoman James' office at 67 Hanson Place, Brooklyn, NY 11217. You can also call her at 718-260-9191 or email her at james@council.nyc.ny.us. If you're feeling a little bolder, why not give Captain John Cosgrove at the 88th a call? He can be reached at 718-636-6511. And if you know anyone else in the press or in the Bloomberg administration, please forward them the link to this post.
Pivotal Condo Project for Clinton Hill [Brownstoner]
Comments
In Prospect Park South and environs, we have kept a hawk's eye on Comstat figures, and actively disputed them when our "reality check" in the neighborhood was that muggings etc were up. We invite cops (beat and brass)to our block meetings and hold their heels to the fire. When we felt we were getting snowed awhile back, we showed up at the community council meeting at the precinct house holding red handprint signs for each of us who'd been a crime victim, lest their self-congratulatory reports about crime "numbers" being down be seen as the whole story. And we encourage residents to report everything, every gunshot, every purse-snatching or act of vandalism...no fatalism, no tolerance, no "No Snitching" t-shirts, thankyouverymuch.
Is that the level of community determination in this area?
Posted by: Brenda from Flatbush at June 1, 2006 10:57 AM
B'Stoner,
I do not live in NYC but live in an area similar to Clinton Hill in San Diego, i.e. an up-n-comer. We have similar crime issues on our main drag(s) and a broke city who's police are leaving for Riverside for cheaper houses and more pay.
Last week (while my parents from NY were visiting) we had a murder in an alley of one of the apartment ghettos which is a frequent drug spot. We repeatedly have commercial robberies in this area, almost always on weekends, almost always around 10-11 PM.
My question, which is probably the same as yours, is why is there NEVER a cop around between 10-11 PM on weekends? I don't have a good answer for that. The police say they just don't have the manpower.
The reality is that the police simply can't stop this type of crime because it is ingrained into the neighborhood. People who play dice and smoke weed have been doing it for years. Most of them are pretty harmless, but obviously some of them are not.
The only way to change this is for the neighborhood to change. You and your neighbors need to get involved. You need to set up or join a neighborhood watch. You need to have a community group that makes these crime issues a priority - not parks, not housing codes and preservation, crime. You need to email your city councilmen, the NYPD, and the mayor's office. You need to pressure the business owners to improve lighting and surveillance in these areas. You need to raise a holy stink and keep fighting for a long time.
best of luck to you. I am sorry this happened and I know it scares the hell out of you.
Posted by: Sassy at June 1, 2006 11:06 AM
this was in the daily news police blotter which I think are the same gunshots- *** A man was shot dead and another was wounded during an argument on a Bedford-Stuyvesant street, police sources said yesterday.
The incident began at about 8 p.m. Monday, when Damon Lee, 39, argued with a 26-year-old man over a woman near Grand Avenue and Fulton Street, the sources said. Lee then allegedly pulled a gun and shot the man.
A 25-year-old man, who was with the wounded victim, then fatally shot Lee, the sources said.
The wounded man was rushed to Kings County Hospital, where he was listed in stable condition.***
we saw the shots fly and 2 guys dash into the store where the candle is to get out of the way of the bullets... i am assuming it was one of those guys that died there... anyway weird to have 2 different scenarios and no regular news coverage.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 1, 2006 11:13 AM
yup...weird indeed. this stuff isn't of great interest to The Times though...
Posted by: Brownstoner at June 1, 2006 11:18 AM
brownstoner, how did you find out what had happened?
Posted by: Anonymous at June 1, 2006 11:21 AM
a lot of the time people assume its the local drug dealers involed in these incidents but often it turns out to be young guys fighting over their girlfriends or some other domestic oriented reason. the drug dealers are probably smart enough not to settle their beefs in broad daylight on the street.
Posted by: anon at June 1, 2006 11:24 AM
I live a few blocks away--I didn't hear the shots but I heard the police sirens. Being in the neighborhood nine years now, I'm starting to agree with friends who believe the 88th precinct is not only inept but potentially crooked.
There are problems on Grand from Lafayette to Fulton, and nothing has changed substantially since I've lived here. I know my neighbors and I have attended the precinct meetings and reached out to elected officials, to no effect.
As you point out, Brownstoner, I think it's time to appeal to the Mayor's office and Ray Kelly because working this problem locally seems to be a waste of time.
Posted by: tinarina at June 1, 2006 11:26 AM
It's not necessarily the drug dealing, it's the 'lawless zone' that gets created around a drug spot that is the problem.
Anywhere you have a drug spot, you have crime.
Posted by: Sassy at June 1, 2006 11:27 AM
I read the same Daily News information about the shooting. I drive by that corner about four times a day, and I do see police walking up and down the block a few times a week, but you can't really stop people from hanging out in front of a building unless you are the landlord, and spend a lot of time making complaints and following up on them.
We should call whatever division of the police department is putting those crime cameras up, and suggest they put video monitoring up on that corner.
Posted by: Shahn Andersen at June 1, 2006 11:28 AM
Sounds like you all may be on to something, re the 88th. I was mugged in Brooklyn Heights a few weeks ago (84th Precinct), and since then I have definitely noticed an increase in the amount of NYPD cruisers patrolling the nabe.
Posted by: Andy at June 1, 2006 11:44 AM
Brownstoner, I am sympathetic -- I wouldn't want this $hit in my neighborhood.
I didn't realize that Clinton Hill and PPS were still such violent places -- really makes one question whether there is any justification for the huge price increases in those nabes.
I guess that there really are very good reasons why there is a premium paid for Brooklyn Heights and Park Slope.
Posted by: Anon at June 1, 2006 11:52 AM
Same goes for a shooting a few months ago in front of te CH Co-Ops on Clinton Ave. I emailed the Ms. James and got a brief description of what happened and she mentioned the police had no leads and the victims weren't talking. But still the NYPD has not increased (to my knowledge) their presence in the area. We love the neighborhood and know it is coming up, but as someone stated before, one problem begets another, begets another.
Posted by: CH newbie at June 1, 2006 11:53 AM
Anon 11:52
I would not characterize CH as a violent place by any means, but there are a few trouble spots that the police don't seem to be doing enough about.
I lived in the West Village for years and it too had its less desirable corners, and Brooklyn Heights and Park Slope are hardly crime-free; you can get mugged just about anywhere in NYC.
Posted by: tinarina at June 1, 2006 12:03 PM
I live a block away--I wasn't in the area when it happened, but my roommate was, and heard the shots.
Does anyone remember, a few months back, when the "Putnam Candy Store," just down from the intersection in question, was raided by a SWAT team? Raided may not be the correct word--the cops were hanging out on the steps, wearing their jackets, in front of their big white van, for over an hour, and looked pretty relaxed, at that.
This corner is a problem area, but I feel like it's only a matter of time before it gets the attention it needs. Grand from Lafayette is quickly developing, and while Fulton isn't moving up as fast as Myrtle, I've definately noticed an increased police presence for at least six months now, if not on our favorite intersection, then in every place around it, including Putnam & Downing.
A murder, unfortunately, but I hope it's true in this case, may be when the crime of the area has escalated to the point of which it can no longer be ignored.
I realize I'm taking the passive stance on this issue, and I am very new to this neighborhood . I just wanted to note that as a casual--but still concerned--observer, while action hasn't been taken in the speed and thoroughness it should, it certainly does seem that this area will quickly improve (about as quickly as it's gentrifying. And what struggles we have with that issue!)
I don't think we have the sort of community determination Brenda speaks of in P. Park South, but from this post there are obviously residents who stay active in the fight. What sort of organizations or councils do we have in this area, and where can I look for information? I'm not involved, but this posting is inspiring me to be. That's the only real way to achieve change, right?
Btw, thanks for posting on this--I've been aching to know more about the incident. (sorry about the long paragraph--can't figure out how to format)
-T
Posted by: Anonymous at June 1, 2006 12:07 PM
edit: the info i need's in the bottom of b'stoner's post. and the formatting _does_ stick.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 1, 2006 12:10 PM
I think there's some confusion because there was also a shooting incident a few blocks away near Franklin and Jefferson (PS3) in Bed-Stuy. Innocent bystanders--children--were shot in that one.
I don't think Clinton Hill is a dangerous place, not by a long shot. It wasn't terrible when I moved here (Grand, a block from the shootout) in 1989, and it's gotten better. But I do wonder how it is that the intersection of Fulton, Putnam and Grand continues to be a hotspot. It does make one wonder what the hell the 88th Precinct is doing when it's obvious that there's a big problem on that corner. Crime elsewhere in the precinct is way down; you'd think they would concentrate on the hot spots that remain.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 1, 2006 1:00 PM
I think the police might step up their presence in the area if one of the new, white residents gets murdered. Seriously, do you expect the NYPD to stop being racist because you moved in? I don't think that's even possible to accomplish.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 1, 2006 1:01 PM
i think in this situation it's about bad guys not black guys- each side had guns and each side decided to use them stupidly at each other- to each his own. i think had an innocent person been caught in the cross fire and been killed-as was the fear upon hearing the shots- then more attention would have been placed- that said i can't believe there wasn't more coverage just for the idea that bullets were flying down a busy city street.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 1, 2006 1:09 PM
the precinct is corrupt. absolutely, positively. take your blinders off, folks!
Posted by: suzy at June 1, 2006 1:12 PM
well wasn't it mentioned while ago that the fulton street organization had just got a grant and soon we will see street cleaning and extra police security? why don't we know more about this things thru the clinton hill society meeting, instead of talking about the house tours, also if we will be able to relocate the methadone clinic on waverly and fulton, that will help cleaning the streets from such of people, I can't belive that's a few blocks from our kids school, what can we do to change this? racisim is the worst answer to this, unfortunately this issue comes out too often, we are a comunity no a race or another I'm sure we all want safety, good places to eat shop and hang out, some more expensive some more affordable, I'm sure everyone wants something better, why don't we start with petitions for all this issues?
Posted by: Anonymous at June 1, 2006 1:37 PM
This kills me!! I've lived in this area all my life and had to put up with this shit. Now all of sudden when other people move in to this area, now we have a problem..
Folks it is what it is. People get killed everyday. Now move along now nothing to see here.
Posted by: Bed Stuy Lover at June 1, 2006 1:44 PM
Brownstoner, I heard about the incident on Monday after returning home from a holiday picnic. It happened around 6pm and a few friends of mine heard the shots too. I immediately thought about you and your family and I'm happy to hear that no one got hurt in the crossfire. My heart goes out to you, your family and neighbors.
As I proposed on various other threads, I think we (residents of CH) need to form an organization (community wide) that specifically focuses on the issue of crime in CH. At this point it's quite obvious that individual block associations can not do the job alone. It's going to take many blocks coming together to tackle this problem collectively.
The problem areas in CH are clearly (1) Grand and Putnam, (2) Fulton and Washington, (3) Grand and Lafayette, (4) Fulton and Classon; (5) Fulton and Franklin; and (7) Classon and Lefferts Place. NYPD cameras at these locations are a start but it has to go much further.
IMHO, Southeastern Clinton Hill will not entirely change for the better without: (a) a consistent police presence; (b) the installation of cameras on various street corners; (c) the closing of the methadone center on Fulton and Waverly; (d) the turnover of certain trouble buildings, e.g., (i) Putnam and Grand, (ii) Washington and Fulton, (iii) Classon and Lefferts; and (e) the elimination of the three short term hotels in the area, e.g., (i) Washington Ave, (ii) Classon and Fulton and (iii) Lefferts and Classon. The methadone clinic and short term hotels are perhaps the biggest problems because their very existence creates a corridor that nurtures, supports, and promotes a criminal element in the area.
Now we can talk about street violence and crime in CH until we are all blue in the face but nothing good will ever happen unless we join forces and put forth a definitive plan to eliminate this problem. We can't afford to wait five more years for gentrification to bail us out - it might not! What happens in the interim? Why should it take a stray bullet striking a "white 3yr old" for folks to take notice and action? Part of the problem is that the old residents of CH have become immune to the crime and violence and simply chalk it up to it being "part of life in the hood". Another part of the problem is the utter unwillingness of gentrifiers to admit the real extent of the problem for fear of diminishing their property values and slowing down the rate of gentrification in their nabes. Either way you slice it both groups are not living in reality.
Now what's next? Who's willing to step up and form something tangible to address this very serious problem? I'm in. Who else? Brownstoner, perhaps you can help us organize?
Posted by: BrownBomber at June 1, 2006 1:48 PM
Last night there was a murder on Stuyvesant Avenue between Jefferson and Hancock, supposedly the safer landmarked area (Stuyvesant Heights). http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=local&id=4225176
I live about a block away. I don't know what to do about it. Part of me is scared shitless and the other part of me says it can happen anywhere. My hunch, purely on anecdotal evidence, is that crime is increasing and the police presense is not. Residents pretending everything ok is not going to help either.
I can't understand why there aren't more cops walking the streets of Bed Stuy.
I work in midtown and there are more cops just hanging around street corners and subway entrances than i've seen total in bed stuy in three years. i wonder if we are being hurt by terrorism?
Posted by: pietro at June 1, 2006 1:58 PM
Bed Stuy Lover, what is it you're saying? That only "other people" think being shot is a problem, not you? Perhaps you're a little more zen than most folks... but I'm not aiming to get killed anywhere-- my apartment, my block, sitting in a cab, waiting for a train, anywhere-- anytime soon!
Not sure what your point is, but if your recommendation is that everyone just sit back and let their (and your) neighbors get shot, where does that get you?
Brownstoner, I'm glad you posted about this and put some important names and numbers in. I don't live in your area but do live in BH in an area familiar with similar crimes-- and a bodega frequented by dealers 24/7-- and the only thing that stops it/slows it down is neighborhood people banding together to demand better protection by their police and elected officials. The 1:44 pm poster's apathy is what often allows police precincts to get lazy about enforcing the law in their areas. It would be a shame if everyone thought that way.
Thanks for the good ideas.
Posted by: Cat at June 1, 2006 2:00 PM
Bed-Stuy Lover: the fact that people didn't care about crime in Bed-Stuy and Clinton Hill before they moved there is wrong, but pretty understandable. You can justly criticize people for turning a blind eye to conditions in the hood, but not for caring about the safety around their own homes. But you are right, people do get killed every day...
Posted by: Drew at June 1, 2006 2:05 PM
To poster above who didn't know there was 'that much crime'in PPS, there isn't--thanks in part to neighborhood vigilance in pushing back spillover from our nearby 'impact zone' (Church Ave. east from the B/Q subway stop, roughly). As for the Race Card here, both sides are right. Black life is inarguably held cheaper by the media and even by (some) cops. But some of this fatalism is fueled by a street culture that has given us the "No Snitchin'" and "Warn a Brotha" t-shirts. Read the NY Times article today about shootings on the rise in Hartford--the residents' own level of acceptance is staggering, and their refusal to cooperate with cops goes way beyond "cultural mistrust" into a deep-seated pathology of alienation that no one precinct can turn around with any amount of good will.
As I'm fond of saying in debates that threaten to degenerate into racial blah-blah: It's about behavior, stupid. When people who shoot each other and protect shooters and dealers are replaced by people who don't shoot each other and then actively participate in building a safer community, (or when the first kind of people start acting like the second kind of people), things will get better. It is preposterous to assume that the second kind of people have to be Caucasian, although sociodemographic factors may skew them that way.
Posted by: Brenda from Flatbush at June 1, 2006 2:15 PM
Re: the police report posted by 11:13...Isn't this Clinton Hill? But when there's a murder involved...oh, it's suddenly Bed Stuy.
I see lots of cops around Fulton and Nostrand area, but I haven't been living there that long and don't even know what precinct that is yet.
11:52, please read 11:44's post.
Posted by: Yente at June 1, 2006 2:18 PM
?????????????????????????????????????
The silence is deafening.....
Posted by: BrownBomber at June 1, 2006 2:53 PM
Brownbomber- you can do this. You're passionate about the neighborhood, up on the issues, you are invested in real estate-I know it cuts into your time, but it something like that needs a strong person at the head.
Posted by: Bx2Bklyn at June 1, 2006 3:20 PM
BB, does a methadone clinic really 'nuture' crime in the area? everything i read says it doesn't increase crime; nearby residents find its clients 'distateful' but luckily that's still no crime.
your ideas on community involvement sound good to me, but at the risk of sounding like a broken record ... what could we really do?
Posted by: Jimmy Legs at June 1, 2006 3:20 PM
"I guess that there really are very good reasons why there is a premium paid for Brooklyn Heights and Park Slope."
Posted by: Anonymous at June 1, 2006 3:29 PM
I spoke with councilwoman james and there was a bit of fatalism, like don't ask me what I can do, YOU do something yourself...I think one thing we could do is show up at every monthly precinct meeting and at every mtg ms. james holds. this should hold true for every neighborhood. go to your mtgs!!! and then write about them. keep everyone accountable in the fifth estate!
Posted by: misspriss at June 1, 2006 3:37 PM
"I guess that there really are very good reasons why there is a premium paid for Brooklyn Heights and Park Slope"
There has been a big upswing in the number of muggings in PS, especially near the park (roughtly in the blocks near the third street entrance). So don't believe the hype about how safe it is here either.
Posted by: mork at June 1, 2006 3:39 PM
I've lived in Bed Stuy - er, uh, "Clinton Hill" for about five years now, the current two near the corner of Gates and Downing. Cruisers - both marked and unmarked are *always* patrolling the streets from Washington down to Franklin, Putnam across to Greene.
Funny thing is, I consider the corner of Grand and Putnam one of the safest streets to walk down, merely b/c there are always people there and no one's going to pull shit on their own block. It's just stupid.
Meanwhile, do you remember the long series of two-a-night muggings in the past year? Yeah, those almost all happened on the "pretty" blocks from Ft. Greene to Clinton Hill.
Posted by: yatta at June 1, 2006 3:51 PM
MissPriss has nailed it. Be a wonk. Go to every bloody meeting. Boost involvement by calling everybody the nite before, offering to pick them up,etc. Noodge, cajole, pester. Do a newsletter--frequently. Put together a community listserve or wiki or just an oldfashioned group e-mail for newsflashes. Reach out to merchants and tenants, not just homeowners--they're lower-yield, but they're still stakeholders. And if you're a nabe newbie, seek opportunities to "grow" less-active neighbors who share your values into co-leaders, leveraging their experience with these issues. 90% of it is 'showing up'...
Posted by: Brenda from Flatbush at June 1, 2006 3:55 PM
I don't know about BH but there is plenty of crime in PS. In some ways its worse because its usually a criminal preying on a victim rather than bad guy vs bad guy.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 1, 2006 3:59 PM
Bx2B, I really want to do this. Yes, I am very passionate about public safety and quality of life issues in Clinton Hill. However, addressing these concerns in any meaningful way will require a collaborative effort. You can't just put your face out there as the lone ranger because they'll cut your down faster than a weed whacker. You show me a poster child for this type of extreme - albeit necessary - activism and I'll show you a martyr and candlelight vigil.
I recall the Grand Ave resident who was threaten at gun point because of his constant pleas for change on the corner of Putnam. Another neighbor of mine repeatedly had his car tires slashed to the point that he's now very complacent to the nabe's wrongdoing. His warning: "get involved at your own risk." Nonetheless, I'm willing to take on the risk if others are willing to join. As previously stated we need an official organization who will meet, plan, write letters, protest, advocate, and seek the support of the larger community, its business leaders and the political establishment.
I know that others feel the same way that I do but too many of us are just too afraid to speak out. Others are simply too motivated by the insatiable thirst for higher and higher property values to bring any attention to this matter. They simply hold out for a "gentrification bailout" that might never occur.
Posted by: BrownBomber at June 1, 2006 4:40 PM
Mr. B, you brought up this topic. Any other thoughts?
Posted by: Anonymous at June 1, 2006 4:47 PM
One thought and then I shd shut up since I'm not overly familiar with the neighborhood.
If police presence is a problem, then agitating for more, coupled with the kind of activism BrownBomber indicates, could only help. But would police presence do anything to change *this particular* type of crime-- a crime-of-passion shooting over a dice game that (I'm guessing) the police would not break up (or have grounds to)?
Isn't police presence most effective in situations where people decide not to act, or to move their activity, because the cops might be around? In other words, muggings, burglaries, but not shooting a guy you get pissed off at over a dice game.
By all means bring on the cops, but I think Sassy from San Diego has a point that this is the kind of murder that it takes community change, not just more patrols, to eliminate.
Posted by: linusvanpelt at June 1, 2006 4:58 PM
Maybe the first thing to do is contact as many block associations in this overall area as possible, the local reps and the community boards. Let the pols know you are going to hold their feet to the fire (if you know any reporters, or have press contacts use them as much as possible.) You can do a mailer to the block associations and community groups ( can help you do the layout- I'm a graphic artist) and see what kind of response you get. And don't forget the community affairs dept. of the local precinct. Pressure them, get to know them. I've always found that once the police know you as a community leader or activist, they want to work with you because its in their best interests as well.
It's true- not only does being a lone ranger get you grief, it's not very effective in terms of getting things done. But I will also make a suggestion (I know this will make you laugh!) but why not approach FCR and see if they will take a real interest in making the surrounding neighborhoods cleaner and safer. It's to their advantage too. And they have the money to help. Not to mention (I shudder as I say this), think of the great press they'll get. Which they can use right about now :-)
Posted by: Bx2Bklyn at June 1, 2006 5:02 PM
Hey Brenda from Flatbush: The Church Avenue neighborhood west of the B/Q (Argyle, Westminster, and Stratford) is problematic as well, and likely also is an impact zone. I agree, however, that community involvement, including statistics showing the great percentage of homes that have been affected by crime, can lead to a greater police presence.
Posted by: PPSer at June 1, 2006 5:04 PM
Jimmy Legs asked: "BB, does a methadone clinic really 'nuture' crime in the area?"
Do you know many junkies? What they used to do is put the methadone in their mouths, go outside, spit it into a paper cup and sell the dose along with a littlle valium. You can get really wrecked with the little spit-methadone-valium cocktail and Mr.Junkie gets enough $ to go get properly wasted somewhere else. OF COURSE a methadone clinic nurtures crime.
Posted by: Coward at June 1, 2006 7:08 PM
Brownbomber, do you really think all those corners are a problem? Just because a bunch of black guys "congregate" outside a bodega doesn't mean they are a bunch of criminals. I have the luxury of air conditioning at home; if not, I'd be outside looking for someone to bullshit with a lot more than I do in the summer.
What's the problem at the corner of Grand and Lafayette???
Posted by: Anonymous at June 1, 2006 7:20 PM
Why don't we all meet at the next Clinton Hill Society meeting and re-adress the problem, who cares about the house tour and the garden tour if first we don't clean up from crime and safety!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Anonymous at June 1, 2006 9:08 PM
I'm with you BrownBomber. Figure out a way for folks to contact each other and I'll be in touch.
In my experience, the Clinton Hill Society is somewhat useless--the same folks have been running it for a zillion years and what they care about is house tours and landmark violations. A new group would be better.
Posted by: anonymous at June 1, 2006 9:18 PM
Today i was at the corner of fulton and washington at the deli, two sanitation officers were there giving a ticket to the deli for being not necessarely as clean as they are suppost to be, there are Fu.....g dirty, and literally the guys from the deli went face to face to the officer calling him as....e and ...... I'm sure they will be facing charges very soon, the point is that it looks very hard to be able to change the mentality of this buisness owners which are just dirty old school shops and especially this one in particular makes money out of the junkies from the methadone clinic, sorry but no matter what race you are or how rich or poor you are, you don't want this kind of sh.t in your neighborhood.Don't support them,don't shop there,they soon should get out of here.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 1, 2006 10:05 PM
i think the problem is more around grand and greene. and some of those dudes are NOT just trying to get cool. they are very visibly exchanging money for drugs. seen it up close. many, many times.
Posted by: misspriss at June 1, 2006 10:55 PM
Alas! I have a neat solution. Let's leave the public officials to tend to more pressing matters ( ie. putting their personal lives together) and since it seems the drug dealers have more to lose, let's have the dealers police the area to prevent their patrons from commiting break-ins and petty larceny. One might think it behooves them to do so, as they will no longer have the open drug bazar that are these corners once the police reluctantly come in.
Another solution just came to mind: Why don't the concerned and affected denizens of this fine neighborhood all pool resources to see to it that a Dunkin Donuts grace these god-forsaken corners.
God! I love college.....
Posted by: Wise1 at June 1, 2006 11:05 PM
As someone who deeply cares about this neighborhood, I think that the way you wrote this is totally irresponsible and negligible of the existing dynamics of the neighborhood.
1.) there is definitely increased police prescence - b.c it's clinton hill! There is always an increased police presence when gentrification happens. you think Bed-Stuy is getting the kind of police surveillance we are getting in the Hills? hell no - cuz they don't have as much high-income residents like the Hill. you should realize that we have relatively great surveillance.
2.) all you do is complain about the neighborhood - but it's only about the people who have long lived here before you came, or all the hipsters before you
3.) Putnam and Grand is Clinton Hill on paper - but you start calling it Bed-Stuy once a murder happens?
4.) Leticia James is doing a great job -what happened is unfortunate - but instead of bashing James we should call on ourselves in Clinton hill to form a true united community coalition - one that knows your neighbors names - NOT JUST THE WHITE ONES or SAFE BLACK FOLKS
5.) what are you doing about CLinton hill? What are you doing to build community, respect, appreciation and etc? Ranting about a neighborhood that you recently adopted doesn't cut it for me. For someone with the audience size that you have, you really are able to transform people and views in a positive way, but instead I just see you hiding behind your blog and feeling all successful cuz people like reading about "your take" on the neighborhood.
Posted by: tricia at June 1, 2006 11:09 PM
So much for creative problem solving. Just providing tomorrows solutions to today's problems and issues.
Posted by: Wise1 at June 1, 2006 11:14 PM
This dialogue is descending to the proletariat level of "the blame game."
Posted by: Wise1 at June 1, 2006 11:16 PM
Hey everyone...Tish James was put in her job because the Councilman before her was SHOT! Did we all forget???
That's right, he was shot. He was also very effective on speaking out on violence. The irony. Although the race discussion does make me nauseated, w/t/f/ he was black, she is black. I am white. OK now that that is off my chest...he fought for safety and children and non-violence and he was killed by another stupid jealous non effective politician. Ms. James likes to wage her wars against white people (she hates to admit it) and of course some real stupid white people on the pretty blocks held pot luck dinners to get her in office in the first place. They are also the people who like to hold house tours. They are also the people who hate Ratner. Tish knows her job is to promote their interests while pretending to keep housing affodable for blacks. She however and I repeat got her job when her predeceesor was SHOT! Stick to calling the police and doing something and stop blaming each other for your skin color you are all getting me BORED>
Posted by: Anon at June 2, 2006 8:21 AM
Right on, Anon 8:21! I couldn't agree with you any more! Tish James is a huge problem! She's all form and no substance. Only interested in sugarcoating CH while ignoring all of its real problems. The sooner she's out of office the better. Totally ineffective!
Posted by: Justathought at June 2, 2006 10:25 AM
Linus, I'm dissappointed. You're comments are usually so Poignant. Just to enlighten the group that's unaware. The Dice game (Called CE-LO pronounced SEE-LOW)is an act of gambling. As far as I know unsanctioned gambling is a crime. So a crime of passion that comes from a crime of gambling could have been stopped in the first place if the crime of gambling was stopped!!! So as far as I'm concerned, I've never seen a Ce-lo game with a cop nearbye.
This spot isn't a Drug spot... It's where unemployed cats hang, and some live. And they all carry "heat" If a cop was posted there every day, for every day he stood there, there wouldn't be ONE crime committed. I drive down the block no less than 5 times a day. And I'm always amazed that people call this the DRUG spot. No exchanges going on there. Just cats you probably wouldn't want to live amoungst. It's bad guy vs bad guy. I rolled head crack.... Pay Me!! etc.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 2, 2006 10:34 AM
"That's right, he was shot. He was also very effective on speaking out on violence. The irony."
Are you speaking of Mr. Davis? Actually, no he wasn't very effective at all. All he was a man with a loud mouth and a big smile and anyone with any sense realized this the moment they met him. But somewhow he beat out L. James in the primary (a woman with a fantastically strong background.)
I'm not a Davis hater - he got some small housekeeping things cleared up on my old block when we asked, but I wouldn't dare call him effective on more complex issues like crime, unemployment, or transportation in Bed Stuy.
Posted by: yatta at June 2, 2006 11:10 AM
Just for the record dice games are gambling and the police have every intention of breaking it up. There was one in front of my house 10 days ago. Bunch of kids, very loud, though not violent. It was making me f****ing nuts. I couldn't hear myself think and my kids were going to bed (this was about 10). I called 311 not expecting much (after I asked them to keep it down, btw. they were polite, but didn't move). 311 took it very seriously and patched me into 911 because of the gambling. As I was on the phone, my husband walked in and told them to move it and they listened without even a sneer (sigh, the feminist in me heartbroken). Took off in their car and were gone. So, let's not be so complacent and we should complain all the time about what we don't like. And for the record, I've lived here 18 years -- longer than some of these punks have lived period.
Posted by: kcf at June 2, 2006 11:30 AM
I'm sorry older residents feel threatened that younger people are moving in... NEWS FLASH that would happen anywhere else (maybe not Ft. Lauderdale).
For the person who said "murders happen everyday, move on": what are you trying to prove, your callousness? I do not know of anyone of any age, race, culture that approves of murder close to home. I'm sorry you feel so defeated that you can accept such a low life standard that murder is an everyday event.
People are willing to make a positive change in the standards now... sorry it didn't happen 15 years ago, but as many of you like to bring up- us young newcomers were only 10 years old, so we couldn't help you then, we are willing to promote a change for the better now. Does our age, race, money matter enough to prevent improvement?
Posted by: Anonymous at June 2, 2006 12:52 PM
To the poster above, i don't think people feel threatened by younger people moving into a new neighborhood and I definitely don't think older residents have become oblivious to these happenings. What I think is happening is that with the influx of newcomers(mostly whites with money) comes this attitude of this is unnacceptable or outrageous. When their outcry's for help and resolve has fallen on deaf ears. This type of attitude, I think to most people who have lived in these communities for generations comes across the wrong way. They've lived in these neighborhoods when they were crime infested and now when they are somewhat better.
As someone else mentioned, the value of black life is unfortunately less than that of whites. I don't think anyone wants to live in a neighborhood where there is crime, regardless of what it is, but for all you newcomers, be a bit more sensitive to the this topic. I'm not saying to be accepting of this sort of behavior, but you knew what type of neighborhood you were getting into when you invested, so understand that change has to come from within the community. Also for those who don't believe that this is a racial or class issue, think again. As long as you live in the US of A these issues will be present!!
Most of these guys on the streets, first of all don't have an education, aren't able to work, or have no desire to do so. Opportunities are quite minimal for them. In fact most black males aren't suppose to live past the age of 21, which is a sad but realistic fact.
Now, just because you move into an area, doesn't mean that the area is suppose to just up and change for you, life doesn't work that way. You have to work to get anything done.
Unfortunately, and I hate to say this but it is true that less attention is placed on situations like these when black life is involved. Why this happens, I don't really know, but it seems as though safety comes with the financial make-up of class and race in a neighborhood. And for those of you who don't believe different, look at neighborhoods such as Bedstuy, Crown Heights, East New York, Bushwick(certain parts), Newark, etc..
I think the problem here is much deeper and i think Brownstoner, with the voice you have, as one person mentioned before, you shouldn't be hiding behind this little blog.
I'm sure if I were to ask anyone else on this board if they would be willing to lend themselves to also caring about changing other neighborhoods that many of you despose. I'm sure no one would do such a thing!!! Unfortnuately if problems as these affect us or are within a small radias of where our homes that are valued at 1-3 million are then we start to want to care, but as for the rest of brooklyn, the slums, the hood as referred to on this site, where people die every damn day, where poverty and education standards are such big problems, who cares?? We have our own problems to worry about. Remember people, criminals aren't just born and raised, they usually have no disdain for life because no one cared or was able to show them something different. So to all you gentrifiers, ask yourself this question?? Would you be willing to go outside of your neighborhood to help circumvent the problems that seldom frequent your quaint lifestyles?? Life is funny, isn't it??
Posted by: Freeform at June 2, 2006 4:42 PM
Hi neighbors:
I moved to Downing/Putnam 3.5 years ago. It took me 2 months to get mugged in front of the Met and it was maybe another few months before there was a shooting on Cambridge Place, not even 100 yards from last Monday's shooting. So to my knowledge, this is the second shooting on that corner within three years.
Having witnessed the aftermath of both events, I can say there has been a palpable change in police presence following each of them. After the 2003 shooting there were squad cars on every corner along Fulton from Downing to Vanderbilt for about a month. Additionally, there was a community anti-violence meeting/speak-out of some nature.
I believe it may be chronicled in one newspaper or another that the undercover agents who were in the neighborhood at the time of the first shooting were corrupt, as I understand via word of mouth that they were asked to tender their resignations in the summer of '04. In fact, one of my friends told me that a couple of the dealers were brashly celebrating one day and handing out clippings of the newspaper article -- could be rumor or embellishment.
All the rumor and FYI info aside, I can say that between these two shootings it really felt like the neighborhood had calmed for a long while. Only early this spring did it start to feel "lawless" again. Although I think "a little on the edge" is a more apt description than "lawless."
My block is particularly family oriented, with the schoolyard being a constant draw for children. Even there, however, we have been victim to a break-in and a few minor "crimes of opportunity".
I guess my point is that police and community, while influencial, do not address the underlying socio-economic factors. To read the blog entry about last Monday's shooting, one would think there has been zero or ineffectual community and police response over the past several years. While the neighborhood certainly has a long way to go, I can say from firsthand observation that this is not the case. The drug action on the corner of Putnam and Cambridge is visibly far less than it was three years ago. In terms of observable street deals, it's comparatively nil. I agree whole-heartedly that it would be nice to see the city take more interest in the goings-on of Clinton Hill, but it's also important to recognize that the neighborhood has gotten much safer even just over the past few years and that deep-rooted socio-economic issues don't vanish over night.
I dunno, food for thought or whatever I guess.
Also, I am interested to know where the 411 for this post came from, as I have heard differing accounts of the shooting from both of the local bodegas and yet a different account from the New York Post police blotter, which claims the shots were fired from a moving vehicle.
Posted by: Z at June 2, 2006 7:06 PM
Also, Anonymous posted above that the corner there is ot necessarily a drgug corner and I would like to echo Anon's sentiments there. I lived there when that was indeed a very busy drug corner. They had lookouts, scouts and the whole bit. Seems to me the action for drug deals has moved a few blocks further ino Bed-Stuy. This change was indeed a direct result of increased police presence on that corner.
The spot of the shooting is moreso a loitering/hangout spot. Mostly they just stand around and there's also the occasional CE-LO or chess game going on. To be honest, I don't even mind so much that they all hangout there. In three years, I've never had a single problem with any of the cats who loiter on that corner and I walk by them at least a handful of times every day. I'm not saying I feel obliged to hang out with them, but they have always seemed content to let me mind my own business.
Posted by: Z at June 2, 2006 9:11 PM
the guys on the corner of grand and putnam are actually pretty nice if you get to know them. the dudes who cause problems are not from the block. for a while there was a police there every day a couple of years ago. they stopped staying there since nothing was up.
Posted by: minky at June 4, 2006 1:04 PM
Here's a link for info on the shooting.
http://www.nysun.com/article/33605?page_no=4
I also found some information on NY Post daily police blotter, which mentioned that the shooting was preceded by a fight over a woman. Both articles have similar info & mention that there were 3 people involved, but not 3 people shot. Where did that information come from? All I can share is what I read from the papers & saw for myself. We heard the shots around 6pm and it was 6-8 shots. It was clearly either 2 different guns, or the last 3 shot sounds were really bullets ricocheting off metal. From the roof we saw a man grab something from the intersection and tear down Grand toward Gates. Then we saw a body on the traffic triangle. That man was still alive when the ambulance took him away. From where we were standing I wasn't able to see a 2nd body or police/ambulance taking care of that body so I don't know where he was. Maybe on Putman? Where did the information about the dice game come from? And the 3rd person shot - where did that come from?
I've chosen not to comment or add my personal thoughts to this post, but instead share information that I read or saw with my own eyes... which leads me to...
the corner of grand & putnam remains a drug corner. To think that there aren't deals is naive. I saw an exchange early this morning. I see it every morning.
Posted by: cruz at June 5, 2006 11:31 AM
Freeform, for the record, instances of crime like that of Memorial day is unacceptable and outrageous. To be offended if that is said by a new white resident is revealing of the classist, racist chip on your shoulder. Explanations as to why some guy became a thug will never excuse violent or criminal behavior, and until you recognize that and stop identifying with it or hiding behind racial inequality explanations of criminal behavior, nothing will change. Stand up for the hardworking blacks (even, dare I say it, the newcomers in your neighborhood - black and white) in your community rather than reinforcing stereotypical excuses for criminal behavior, and things will get better. Regardless of what the laws are, if the culture of the community does not condone crime, it will not occur as frequently. You, my friend, at least from you posting, seem to want to straddle the fence on what to do about crime in the neighorhood. Call it out for what it is, wrong, and those who perpetrate it should be jailed. Period. No tolerance.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 5, 2006 3:12 PM
I think that this is a very distressing issue for those of us who live on and around Grand Avenue. I was walking home from Prospect Park after a very enjoyable afternoon only to find yellow police tape surrounding the area. I had to walk around to get onto my block, and even more disturbing was that 24 hours later; there was still blood on the sidewalk. This is completely and totally unacceptable. The candle was placed there by one of the business owners. There were 2 people who died and they happened to be fighting over a woman. The argument actually started further down the block, on Grand Avenue. Some of the guys involved in the altercation didn't even live on the block. The guys on the block, as some of you have mentioned, are smart and observant. Most of the times these shootings involved people from other blocks and other neighborhoods.
The bottom line is that it's very important to stay involved and be active in the neighborhood, regardless of race, class or length of time residing in the neighborhood. Part of the problem is that many people choose to look the other way and don't want to get involved to solve the problem. I am tired and frustrated about the lack of involvement by many who live in the neighborhood. It seems like it's always the same people who are activists and ultimately they get tired and burned out. It's time to unite and make a difference while also making our elected officials accountable ALL the time, not just in an election year!!
Posted by: bkgal at June 6, 2006 8:57 PM
"Posted by: Anonymous at June 1, 2006 03:29 PM
I spoke with councilwoman james and there was a bit of fatalism, like don't ask me what I can do, YOU do something yourself...I think one thing we could do is show up at every monthly precinct meeting and at every mtg ms. james holds. this should hold true for every neighborhood. go to your mtgs!!! and then write about them. keep everyone accountable in the fifth estate!"
The person that wrote this must be on drugs. Ms. James does not hold the mothly meeting with the precinct. The 88th Precinct Community and Youth Council meeting are held by a board that was voted in by the community. Most of you probably have never been to a meeting and you come on this boards and talk shit all of the time. The next meeting is at 257 Greene Avenue on June 20, 2006 at 7:30pm. This is the last meeting before the summer and they resume in September. If you have any questions contact the Community Affairs Officer at 718-636-6526. If you are serious about cleaning up the area you will be at most if not all of the meeting throughout the year, not just when something happens on your block. This is directed to all of you fake ass community activist out there.
Tish James does nothing for this community. Her only focus is Bruce Ratner. Get a gripe people.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 14, 2006 2:28 PM
Reply to: "Posted by: Anonymous at June 1, 2006 03:29 PM
Learn to spell angry man. I think you need to settle down a little and get a "gripe" yourself. These people aren’t' on drugs or fake ass anything. They are people that are frustrated with crime in their neighborhood and for good reason. As far as I can tell we are all on the same side, against the crime. Am I right? Then let’s try to work together instead of calling each other names.
On that note, sorry for calling you angry man and making fun of your spelling...
Posted by: Bill at June 23, 2006 11:11 AM
Another shooting on this block tonight - wish I would have found this blog before I moved to this corner!
Posted by: k at July 19, 2007 10:44 PM
k - you're on the corner? scary. i live in a brownstone in the middle of the block, it's different a few feet up.
i was talking to my upstairs neighbor when we heard 6-7 big bangs. took maybe 5 minutes for cops, fire, and ambulance to show up.
does anybody know what happened? the rumors are pretty weak, no details. could be 1 or 2 guys getting shot at; shooters got away in a car (it was a drive-by). are they dead? i don't think i see bullet wounds on the building but it's hard to tell.
i wonder if the barricade that was here last summer is coming back? and the camera? there are lots of undercovers... i can't understand how they don't bust the crack business - it is SO OBVIOUS
Posted by: grand ave resident at July 21, 2007 7:49 PM
Hey, I live on the corner too, and came here looking for answers on the July 19th shooting as well. Still nothing. I went by the 88th precinct and they also said they could not disclose that information. Shouldn't I have a right to know about people being shot at within 20 yards of me?
Posted by: Anonymous at July 24, 2007 4:22 PM
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