« When It Comes to the Stoop, Size Does Matter Tuesday On The Record »
December 5, 2006
House of the Day: 408 Stuyvesant Avenue
This drool-worthy limestone mansion at 408 Stuyvesant Avenue in Stuyvesant Heights just hit the market. It's so impressive architecturally (except for a couple of recently-reno'd spots) that we almost feel bad questioning the asking price of $2.1 million. Although the building has a large footprint (22 by 60 feet), it is only three stories and therefore only 4,000 square feet. (It's hard to tell from the photo whether the basement is habitable or not. We're guessing that's what the photo of the windowless modern room is.) We're not aware of any house in the historic area selling for more than $1.5 million. Also, we're not sure how it's six-family status should affect the sales price. At this price, it seems like the only option for a buyer will be to convert it to condos. Starting at $500 a foot pre-conversion even makes that route a stretch, no? Is there any precedent for this price? Any chatter in the neighborhood about this?
408 Stuyvesant Avenue [Halstead] GMAP P*Shark
Trackback Pings
TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://www.brownstoner.com/mte/mt-tb.cgi/93
Comments
hey all:
sorry to interject something else in this string, but i figured it would be a good place to ask...do any of you know what a dutch ceiling is? I am lookin at a limestone and the broker keeps telling me about the dutch ceiling...anyone have any clue? thanks.
Posted by: anon at December 5, 2006 12:33 PM
enough with all the drool worthy townhouses. sigh....can we just take off one of the zeros off the asking price.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 5, 2006 12:40 PM
$2.1m for 408 Stuyvesant Avenue appears very excessive.
404 Stuyvesant Avenue (the house next door) is for sale for $1.6 million through L. Nelson & Assoc. It's equally beautiful and a three family with a finished basement. In my opinion, it's a far better deal.
404 Stuy Ave was highlighted on Brownstoner in October after an auction (stupid vehicle) of the property failed to net more than $1.25m. I can't see either property selling for more than $1.5m in this market. If offered in 2005, there would've been a crazy bidding war for both. Either way you slice it, these are two awesome homes and someone is going to be sitting very pretty in a few years.
http://web.mac.com/wknelsonjr226/iWeb/Site/Stuy%20heights%20mansion.html
Posted by: Anonymous at December 5, 2006 12:48 PM
did you guys check out the cool ribcage shower in the pictures for the 404 stuy house posted by anon above...
Posted by: anon at December 5, 2006 1:09 PM
wow, the interior of 404 stuy house is breathtaking.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 5, 2006 1:55 PM
totally confused. what prices have things actually sold for in this area? if they haven't sold for more than $1.5m than the buyer for this one is going to have to come in with an awful lot of cash.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 5, 2006 2:03 PM
Listing says it is 6-unit. Rent-stabilized tenants maybe? If that is the case can't be realistic asking price no matter how nice building is on outside.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 5, 2006 2:36 PM
Hard to find adequate comps since nothing of this caliber has sold in the neighborhood in recent memory. The limestone mansions on Stuyvesant Avenue rarely ever come onto the market. These are archtitecturally significant homes on the grandest block in all Stuyvesant Heights. You can't use ordinary brownstone comps in the neighborhood to determine appraisal or fair value for 404 and 408 because nothing else truly compares. The houses on this block are absolultely stunning. I think that if the sellers stick to their guns, they will eventually get between $1.5m -$1.8m for these two beauties.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 5, 2006 2:42 PM
The building is lovely and that is a nice area in Bed Sty and close to the train. It looks like the apartments are in good shape, but a 6 unit building is probably rent stabilized. Whether or not this is the case is the key to the price.
Posted by: donatella at December 5, 2006 3:25 PM
I think that Corcoran had a listing on this block last spring. It is not on the website so i am assuming that it closed. What was the contract price for that house - can't get a better comp.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 5, 2006 3:26 PM
I think that Corcoran had a listing on this block last spring. It is not on the website so i am assuming that it closed. What was the contract price for that house - can't get a better comp.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 5, 2006 3:29 PM
416 Stuyvesant Ave. closed in June 2006 for $1.175 million.
Posted by: babs at December 5, 2006 3:43 PM
The Corcoran property at 414 Stuyvesant sold for $1.2M in May but that limestone was not as grand and glorious as these two (much smaller at 20 ft wide with a more modest facade). Totally different architecture. Both 404 and 408 are detached on one side so you have three exposures. They are also much taller so despite having the same number of floors, the ceiling heights are much higher. All of the row houses on this block are very deep (55-65 ft) and most have finished basements. These listings definitely indicate a flight to quality as even fringe nabes have certain "A List" locations. Property Shark shows two recent sales on this block at or greater than $1mm and from what I remember both needed substantial work, e.g. $300k-$500k. From my own personal observation, deep pocket purchasers are indeed moving into this section of Stuyvesant Heights which bodes well for the overall future prospects of the neighborhood. Hopefully with time services/amenities in the neighborhood will catch up with soaring home prices.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 5, 2006 4:03 PM
"Hopefully with time services/amenities in the neighborhood will catch up with soaring home prices." - 4:03 PM
Or, with time, plummeting home prices will catch down with services/amenities.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 5, 2006 4:52 PM
OK, I don't like anything built before 1950 and even I find these homes incredibly beautiful. SOMEONE is going to buy these, although not for $2M.
Posted by: eeeck at December 5, 2006 4:55 PM
A lot of things don't add up to justify this price:
i) How big are the apts? It's a pretty large house, sure, but for the owners' piece of it to be a decent size, the other apts may only be studios. Are any of the existing tenants RC or RS? The listing doesn't specify so you have to wonder. Buyers at this level don't want the hassle of managing a 6-family property (with a potentially very low rent roll) and someone planning to convert to condos may have a tough time if the units are too small and/or occupied by protected tenants.
ii) The reno looks very "shiny" which is also something many buyers at this level would be turned off by.
iii) No matter how glorious the architecture of an individual house is or how gorgeous an individual block is, prices HAVE to be in line with the neighborhood as a whole. As much as we love parts of Bed Stuy, $2.1 million is just way, way, way too high. No one wants to buy the best house in the "worst" neighborhood. And before everyone goes balistic, I mean "worst" in the real estate sense of "last up, first down." Bed Stuy is probably one of the most vulnerable areas in brownstone Brooklyn to this reliable trend in a cooling market.
Posted by: not holding my breath at December 5, 2006 6:10 PM
does this house have central air? is that standard these days for high-end homes, of any location, marketing themselves as renovated, or is it just kind of gut-renovated? also where are the kitchen pictures? that's where we can see if it's our kind of reno or not.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 5, 2006 7:09 PM
I love this block. It seems like a fair deal because, however you slice it, every house is undervalued in Bedford Stuyvesant.
Starbucks is coming!!!
Posted by: justin at December 5, 2006 7:22 PM
Not Holding My Breath:
I agree I don't think 408 goes for anything close to $2.1m (too many damn units). The owner and broker are out of their freakin' minds. I know a handful of families who just bought beautiful and grand homes on Stuyvesant Avenue and to each and every one they are converting these mansions into single families. This is how they justify the entry into Bedford-Stuyvesant: discount - discount - discount!!!! No steep discount that facilitates a one family conversion? They don't buy - at least at the high end which Stuyvesant Heights certainly commands. Yes, the homes are indeed grand and stacked with details but there are still some very obvious shortcomings to living in this nabe -- services sucks, albeit it's truly a very beautiful architectural and slowly improving nabe. At a discount, my friends are snapping up anything of true merit because on a per square foot basis and given the historical merits of these homes, the price tag can't be beat anywhere in Brownstone Brooklyn - with the exception of Crown Heights North (my favorite sleeper nabe). Under $1.4M on this street it's a no brainer, even if you have to put $250k - $400k to convert into a single family with all of the trimmings, i.e., central air, total home audio and structured wiring, electrical and plumbing upgrade, and updated baths and kitchen. However, at $2.1m this is insane. After conversion you're talking about a final price of $2.6m. The nabe and house clearly don’t’ support this price point. To me, 404 is a great bargain at $1.4m-$1.5m and 408 at $1.3m-$1.4m (too many units) but then again, demo is demo and if you’re stripping the entire house into a single family then the conversion cost should be pretty close to one another – so IMHO fair value is equal between the two homes. In five years Bed-Stuy and Stuyvesant Heights will be indistinguishable from '06 Fort Greene/Prospect Heights and purchasers of 404 and 408 will be extremely happy with their investments. However, the price has to be right to justify the purchase in 2006. $1.4-$1.6m for both? Sold!
Posted by: Anonymous at December 5, 2006 7:44 PM
I have to say that the limestone makes the garden-variety brownstone look a bit gloomy. Lovely house.
Posted by: loser at December 6, 2006 9:29 AM
i disagree. there is something about this exterior that, although authentic, looks fake. like they just tacked on all the trimmings way back when so it didn't look like the cookie cutter. but it still looks tacked on to me. could just be the picture. but it kind of looks cheesy/disneyesque or something.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 6, 2006 12:02 PM
Beautiful house, charming park 1 block away, 24 hour subway access...
$2 million dollars.
Living around the corner from the projects... priceless.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 6, 2006 12:24 PM
Anon 12:24pm,
Perhaps you're too stupid to realize that you just described about 75% of all Brownstone Brooklyn, e.g., Carroll Gardens (Gowanus Houses), Boerum Hill (Wyckoff Gardens), Fort Greene (Ingersoll Houses and Whitman Houses), Clinton Hill (Lafayette Houses), PLG (Fenimore-Lefferts Houses), Vinegar Hill (Farragut Houses), and a bunch more in Williamsburg, Bushwick and Red Hook.
Try this:
College dropout.
Struggling actor.
Laid off from waiting tables at Applebees.
Spending your entire day at the local cyber cafe, collecting unemployment and pontificating on blogsites about real estate you cannot afford....PRICELESS.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 6, 2006 2:24 PM
This place is indeed lovely. Both homes for sale here are overpriced in my opinion. The neighborhood is really wonderful. The people are nice, and this block is very well taken care of. So its not the nicest house in the neighborhood. There are some houses around the corner that frankly get better light.
Posted by: karen at December 6, 2006 3:22 PM
"I disagree. There is something about this exterior that, although authentic, looks fake. Like they just tacked on all the trimmings way back when so it didn't look like the cookie cutter. But it still looks tacked on to me. Could just be the picture. but it kind of looks cheesy/disneyesque or something."
Anon, you need to take a visit to this area and see these houses for yourself. The architecture and construction is of the highest level and quality. The resolution on your computer might be the issue. As for the homes, the facades are spectacular and far from being chessy or poorly fabricated. I love the large front terraces too! These mansions were built for the truly wealthy and are on the order of the grand homes you find on Prospect Park West or the Upper East Side of Manhattan. As for the nabe, I don't have any problems with it. It's beautiful and the people are extremely nice and neighborly. In fact, most of the homes in the area are owner occupied and residents take a particular interest in keeping the nabe green and beautiful - landscaped gardens, flower boxes and planters adorn every street. I love the area. Almost every house has a lamppost out in front which gives the area a special and romantic look and feel at night. I think these houses will definitely trade someone in the range of $1.4-$1.6 million.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 7, 2006 6:14 AM
just thot i'd add my 2 cents. $2.1 is way overpriced and I really don't think they'll get it. I dont care how architecturally significant they are. Size does matter and they're smaller than 4 story brownstones.
Posted by: pietro at December 7, 2006 12:07 PM
Pietro, what are you talking about? These are not small homes. They are far bigger than the average brownstone. They are 22 feet wide on 25 foot wide lots (side alley) and are 60 feet deep (with three sided exposure). They're 4k sft on three floors and over 5k sft if you include the finished basements. The avg NYC brownstone is only 18x45ft. Have you lost your mind this morning? In addition, the basement levels are finished, have windows (front, side and rear) and have ceiling heights great than 7.5 feet. I've been in some of these homes and small is the very last thing that would come to mind. Nonetheless, $2.1m is unobtainable. Both homes will mostly likely fetch something around $1.5-$1.6 million which I consider to be a steal for such beautiful trophy homes.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 7, 2006 12:50 PM
I agree. This house is not small. Property Shark shows the building as 22x60 (three stories not including the basement) on a 25x100 lot size. That's pretty big to me. Moreover, I actually prefer a deeper house rather than a taller house, especially if it's a single family. Who wants to trek up and down four flights of stairs? I also like the center staircase set up which gives you much larger rooms. Lastly, a deep house such as this typically has three parlor rooms thus enabling you to have a living room, dining room and large eat-in kitchen. I agree with Pietro that size does indeed matter and to this extent this house appears to be quite significant.
Posted by: Anon at December 7, 2006 1:39 PM
awesome response to the 12:24pm that was brilliant. i agree these homes are beautiful, bedstuy in todays market gies you the best bang for your buck believe it or not in today's escalating market.
Posted by: anon 12:24 at December 7, 2006 10:31 PM
408 is an almost-fully renovated six family. One tenant refused to move and his apartment was left "as was." He continues to live in the 1st floor front apartment. The property had been rent-controlled.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 14, 2006 1:16 PM
If true, the seller will surely not fetch anything above $1.3M for this property. Halstead is a joke! Any building above 4 family is a real big head ache: stringent building codes must be adhered too; higher property taxes; larger downpayment; appraisal will be almost impossible to obtain for anything above $1.3M; rent contrrol is a huge pain in the ass and seriously limits your options and income potential, etc.
Even if you rent out all of the units, the owner would have to shell out 7k per month just to hold a building that's fully occupied with tenants. This is insane!!! Does the property come with a letter of no harrassment?
Posted by: Anonymous at December 14, 2006 6:57 PM
I live right there. The house on the corner had an asking price of $1.8. it appraised at $1.2 and he ended up selling at $1.2 It had a run down bath and kitchen and the cellar smelled like mold. I'd also like to point out that my roommate almost got mugged on that corner Friday (it would be her 3rd time). I am a single female street smart and have lived there for a while. Although I would never raise a family there. The brownstones might be great but people are still getting shot in the face on your street daily. Dont mistake it..
Posted by: Anonymous at January 30, 2007 3:47 PM
I have been inside various limestones on the same block and whereas 408's exterior stands above the rest, it doesn't match up on the inside. No real thought was given when making rennovations. There are some great details throughout; however, it has been carved up into 6 small apartments. There is also a rent stabalized tenant on the parlor floor. Turning this into a 1 family or 2 would require a significant investment. Only after knocking off half of the price would I consider making the investment.
This is a lovely stretch of BedStuy; however, there are no services, and I unsuccessfully tried to get the make and license plate of a vehicle that smashed into two parked cars a block away from the house while I visited the property.
Posted by: Jeff at February 11, 2007 4:55 PM
Bedstuy is becoming to overpriced and yes people are still getting shot. Dont move in!!!!!!
Posted by: Anonymous at April 15, 2007 11:31 PM
Post a comment
Please be patient while your comment is published. It may take a moment.