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December 21, 2006
PACB Gives Ratner What He Wants
After an Oscar-worthy head fake on Tuesday, Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver, along with the two other members of the Public Authorities Control Board, George Pataki and Joseph Bruno, gave the thumbs up to Bruce Ratner's vision for Atlantic Yards. "I am pleased the developer is committed to addressing numerous community concerns through several specific actions that will result in significant neighborhood improvements,'' said Silver. Last time we checked, traffic congestion, overcrowded schools and a surfeit of chain stores didn't exactly qualify as improvements (though there were some last minute changes, including 200 more units of affordable housing and $3 million more for improvements to neighboring parks) but then again, pols who live upstate must have a better grasp of what's better for Brooklyn than the four assembly members closest to the site. So where does this leave those who oppose the project? Eminent domain lawsuits, scale negotiations and a guy named Spitzer. “From the beginning, the project has been a public-private partnership in which the public has not been represented,” said Kent Barwick, president of the Municipal Art Society. “The vote today reflected a process that simply did not allow New Yorkers to shape the project, and the result is a plan that will not work for Brooklyn.”
State Approves Major Complex for Brooklyn [NY Times]
NY Board Approves Atlantic Yards Plan [Bloomberg]
The Nets Win! [NY Post]
Photo by f.trainer
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Comments
This is a great day for Brooklyn!!
INSTANT GENTRIFICATION for Brownstone Brooklyn east of Flatbush Avenue! Soon to come: more diversity, better schools, more shops and restaurants, and most important - higher property values!!!
Dan Goldstein - YOU LOSE!!
Norman Oder - YOU LOSE!!
DDDB - YOU LOSE!!
The lesson learned here is that a small and vocal minority of NIMBY activists should not and cannot determine and dictate the future of the majority and the future of this borough!
This is awesome news!!
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 9:12 AM
Huray! That's what I'm talking about!
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 9:12 AM
As a resident of North Brooklyn, I look forward to testifying about how great Joe Sitt's vision for Coney Island is. Then we can wait for Domenic Recchia to ask, 'what do you know about my neighborhood?'
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 9:16 AM
I am thoroughly and totally disgusted.
Posted by: Aunt Helen at December 21, 2006 9:20 AM
Excuse my ignorance here but does this plan include building a new school for all these new residents?
Posted by: west at December 21, 2006 9:32 AM
what will this do to property values in fort greene?
Posted by: anon at December 21, 2006 9:40 AM
This is a great day for corporate America!!
INSTANT MALLING for (no longer) Brownstone Brooklyn east of Flatbush Avenue! Soon to come: less diversity, worse public schools (higher private school fees, once they realize how overextended the public schools have become), more chain-stores and fast-food joints, and most important – higher property values (to finally chase out the remaining diversity I just championed)!!
Brooklyn – YOU LOSE!!
Public – YOU LOSE!!
The Middle and Lower Classes – YOU LOSE (again)!!
The lesson learned here is that a small and powerful minority of influential developers can and should determine the future of the majority and the future of this borough!
Now, if they’d just gate the whole thing we can really celebrate!! That’d take care of the traffic problems.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 9:41 AM
traffic traffic traffic. all you traffic whiners are pathetic. you need your cars to go to red hook fairway or to drive your privileged kids to st anne's?
hey, its hard to drive a car in NEW YORK CITY. if you don't like that, get the fuck out.
Posted by: NIMBY whiners loose at December 21, 2006 9:43 AM
I am finally getting optimistic, only one hurdle remaining - Eminent Domain for the 3 remaining homeowners.
Given the political support this project has I would be shocked if some judge decides to unilaterally derail it, but you never know....
What will be great is when Dan Goldstein tries to create the emotional scene of being ripped from his great homestead and all the news media reports is that the guy has only lived in his apt for 3yrs and is making a 1million dollar profit.
Posted by: David at December 21, 2006 9:49 AM
I suspect that Mr. Goldstein has already vacated his apartment. The bed sheet banners have been removed and the lights are always out.
Yes, a great day for Brooklyn. If you don't like traffic, don't drive. The lawsuits will surely fail. Let the construction begin.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 9:53 AM
Traffic? I don't give a rat's ass about traffic. I live in Ft. Greene and the value of my home is about to plummet. And you think I'm worried about traffic?
Get real!
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 10:00 AM
Hard to say if your prop value will drop. If you are very close to the construction site and want to sell in the next 5 years, could be a problem. If you are in the proximity, but not too close, it will likely result in increases in property values, especially landmarked areas that can't be f'd up with opportunistic development.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 10:05 AM
To NIMBY whiners loose 9:43am:
I hope you need the help of an ambulance or a fire truck one day during a Nets game. Maybe then you will realize how far reaching the effects of traffic congestion can be.....
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 10:06 AM
I would hate to use the over used 'tippping point' but with the debabcle in iraq on the federal level (which the democrats will not fix) with the corruption - represented by AY on the state and local level, democracy is on its way to failure in the US
what AY represents is a new form of government - in which revenue hungry politicians team up with developers and fund their projects with tax payer money. the projects skirt public approval by using TIFs. What AY symbolizes is that NO HOME NO PROPERTY is safe from Forest City and other influential developers. Does that make you feel good?
the "democracy" part doesn't work without ethics and you can't have 'ethics' when you have unelected officials, and corrupt politicians that have the power will screw over constituencies outside their districts - like Silver did.
Get a gun you're going to need it.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 10:10 AM
"especially landmarked areas that can't be f'd up with opportunistic development."
Nothing is safe from the ESDC which can over-ride local laws - and corrupt politicians - nothing
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 10:12 AM
Yes, it's a shame that no home is safe from being purchased for double the market value by FCR. I really, really feel for those victims.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 10:13 AM
Yeah, I'm sure the stormtroopers are throwing a bag over anon 10:10's head even as I type this. Have fun in Gitmo.
Posted by: linusvanpelt at December 21, 2006 10:15 AM
To all of you posters from Queens: It sure is heartwarming that you're in no way happy about our misfortune and take absolutely no delight in profiting at the expense of others.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 10:21 AM
Traffic will be backed up well into Queens. :-)
Posted by: Bob Marvin at December 21, 2006 10:28 AM
Damn this is depressing.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 10:29 AM
Actually, I think this make Queens even more irrelevant than it already is --if that's possible!
Posted by: jones at December 21, 2006 10:29 AM
Don't believe the hype. Our conversative state courts will back the opponents of this illegal plan to condemn and take away private property for a developer's personal gain. This is not going to fly. But in the meantime let's just sit back and enjoy the insane rantings of the paid off supporters of the AY plan and our sad, forgotten neighbors in the county of Queens (how strange is it that we've never heard from you folks before...could it be that the nasty PR machine at Ratnerville has caught a pre-holiday bug and came up with another round of negativity for the holiday season?)
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 10:31 AM
anon 10:13
So people should be forced to sell their homes to FC? What possible justification do you have to this?
What possible justification allows the government to force middle class homeowners and businesses to sell to a billionaire developer?
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 10:31 AM
If property values in the areas around AY drops it will not be becasue of any issues relating to the development it will be becasue of the hysteria that is being created by opponents of the project.
I for one LOVE brookln and am looking forward to AY and the Brooklyn Bridge Park (hopefully in my lifetime).
BTW, for all those scared homeowners in FG and PS who are worried about property values, I will be happy to take your (landmarked) brownstone off your hands (I have $1.6m to spend). Please let me know if you are interested.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 10:32 AM
Remember there was that FCR exec who almost bought in Clinton Hill, Brooklyn and didn't because his wife didn't want to live near so many people that weren't as lily white as herself. Maybe they bought in Queens? That could explain it.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 10:33 AM
what was pataki's motivation>?
what was silver's?
I know pataki went to law school with ratner but that doesn't begin to explain this level of corruption.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 10:39 AM
I think it is racism that allows Pataki and Silver to greenlight this project. I mean the guy is out running around for the NY Times today on the top of land he's bought that will become state parks. So clearly rich, white people in Westchester do need parks. But for the poor people in Brooklyn...cram them in, give them the horrible Nets, that will cheer them up (even if they can't buy tix.) ACORN is a race-baiting organization that bullies politicians throughout the state. And I hate to say it but I wonder if all this focus on Daniel Goldstein is because the supporters are antisemites? Enough already with the BS personalizing of the issues of the condemnation to focus on him. Most of the people at risk of being evicted by this plan are renters and are so darn poor. So it's convenient for the supporters to focus on a wealthy man with a jewish last name I think. Let's call it what it is: racism. I'll bet you anything that when the teenagers who might end up living with their folks in the "affordable housing" component try to hang out in AY-ville after dark that a whole bunch of rent-a-cops will pounce on them and send them home. The future of Prospect Heights will probably resemble a gated off version of Roosevelt Island.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 10:47 AM
I am personally very opposed to the whole AY thing as I think its fug and I dont want to deal with the headache, traffic, general annoyances and change to Brooklyn "feel".
That said, there wont be any prop value drop for most. Did property values in Manhattan drop because more people lived there? b/c the schools are more crowded? b/c there are office buildings in certain areas? Of course not!
Yes, it will change the more residential feel of Brooklyn (at least in that area) and I am sad about that. But for anyone but the people who have homes in the immediate area to worry about long termp prop devaluations or Queens being "better" than Brooklyn, dont lose any sleep over it.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 10:48 AM
Wow, anon 10:47, your post was the most hysterical and idiotic thing I've read on this board in quite some time. And that's no easy thing to accomplish! Congrats...
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 10:52 AM
I doubt that property values will drop near the project. The areas will remain desirable, just desirable to different types of people for different reason.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 10:57 AM
Brooklyn is currently valued as an anemic imitation of Manhattan.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 11:00 AM
"ACORN is a race-baiting organization that bullies politicians throughout the state. And I hate to say it but I wonder if all this focus on Daniel Goldstein is because the supporters are antisemites?"
I agree about ACORN...but Frankly, if anything Pro-Atlantic Yards faction is heavily jewish with a few corrupt italians sprinkled in. Nearly all big name developers are jewish, and the support of them comes from jewish-owned papers and the jewish elite.
There are many Jewish people, mostly middle class, opposed to the project, DG is just the most visible but there are plenty. It divides mostly along class, but you'll find the opposition tends to be german-jewish extraction, WASP and middle class Blacks, , pro tends to be east european Jewish, Italian.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 11:03 AM
I agree. The real winner will be Dan Goldstein. He's going to parlay a meager $30,000 condo down payment into a $1 million windfall. Dan Goldstein, if you have any decency, you should donate your immense profit to charity. Can you make this promise to us? It's the right thing to do and the community would be forever grateful to you. How about it?
Posted by: Fort Green'er at December 21, 2006 11:07 AM
I grew up in pre-gentrified park slope in 5th avenue--at that time. despite borded up apartment buildings, and a desolate atlantic yards, no one cared about the integrity of brooklyn neighborhoods then. though desolate for some time, it was not until ratner started creating shopping malls etc that someone came along with any vision of how to change that area that was a huge eye sore for brooklyn.
now many of these newbie yuppies don't want the atlantic yards project? my response: leave!!! i can't wait to by my season tickets for the nets!
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 11:09 AM
1107. Why should Dan G be FORCED to sell to Ratner? And who created this situation? Goldstien...or Ratner by corrupting the state process and declaring a neighborhood with 700K condos 'blighted'?
Why are you so outraged at the idea of Goldstien making money off property he owns, but the idea of Ratner making a billion in profit by robbing tax payers doesn't bother you?
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 11:10 AM
11:09...a blatant lie. Ratner didn't come in until the neighborhoods started coming up. your lies are so easy do disprove since the historic designation of Fort Green and Park Slope predates ratner's blighted, ugly malls.
You forest city employees are very bad at lying...considering all the practice you get, that's surprising.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 11:13 AM
"If so, that's quite curious, since Brooklyn isn't an imitation of Manhattan in any sense that I can see. But suppose you're right. In that case, what we have to look forward to is Brooklyn's being valued as a ebola infected imitation of Manhattan."
Regardless of whether it is indeed an imitation of manhattan that is how brooklyn is priced (brookly is obviously cheaper than manhattan). an indeed many of the newly gentrified areas of brooklyn, (parts of parslope) do have a manhattan feel to them.....
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 11:14 AM
The stupidity on this site is mind-boggling from residents of what should be most cosmopolitan city in the world.
Idiotic ethnic analysis of supporters/opponents, seemingly competitive viewpoint of different boroughs rather than seeing one wonderful city, exagerated opinions on effect of this development bordering on melodrama.
Grow up people.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 11:15 AM
NIMBY whiners loose:
You dont understand what "traffic" really means, do you? Or are you just in this for the antagonism? Do you experience the heavy, heavy truck and car traffic? Do you realize that hundreds of trucks pass thruough that neighborhood every single day, transporting goods to business in Brooklyn and Manhattan? Do you realize what a monstrosity of a new development will mean to the infrastructure this already-overwhelmed area?
Don't assume that those complaining about the complete disregard of the already-choked traffic situation in the area are elitists, shuffling their spoiled children here and there and driving to Fairway. Consider that some of us are regular, middle-class people who might drive once, twice, three times a week for job- or school-related reasons. (Have you ever driven in this area? Do you know what a hellish nightmare it is? This isnt like cruising on Lexington or 6th Ave in Manhattan and hitting all the lights-- its an effing nightmare).
Also, did you consider that many of us might simply be WALKING and taking public transportation? I dont know if you have spent any time travelling in and out of Atlantic Terminal/LIRR and the surrounding subway stations, but those stations are already heavily overcrowded during peak travel times.
I'm not against SOME type of development of AY, but Im for a RATIONAL development, one that has logically assessed the current situation and that includes increased/improved infastructure, parks, schools, etc. That is not what is happening here.
Posted by: Yet Another Park Sloper at December 21, 2006 11:16 AM
to the guy who was born near 5th ave in the slope you are so full of it. there is no way most people born in to poverty, or near poverty, will be able to buy a season ticket to the nets. what they will get is traffic, overcrowded schools and subway platforms, and aggravated asthma conditions. welcome to the new brooklyn. land of investment opportunities for billionaires!
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 11:19 AM
"If property values in the areas around AY drops it will not be becasue of any issues relating to the development it will be becasue of the hysteria that is being created by opponents of the project.
This statement is dead on! Opponents of this project and bloggers on this site are shooting Brownstone Brooklyn and themselves in the foot! I really wish that you guys would stop with all of the scare tactics because you're making the situation appear far worse than it actually is. Yes, I would have prefered if the arena was not located in downtown Brooklyn but it's not the end of the world and Brownstone Brooklyn will continue to be the premier location to live in Brooklyn. All of this negative talk about plummeting property values (simply to prevent the project) will result in just that - plummeting property values. You people should get a life. Brownstone Brooklyn has some of the best housing stock in all of New York City. If you don't want to live here now that AY will be built, simply sell. You will have a line outside your house looking to make the purchase of a lifetime!
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 11:25 AM
Once and for all, does anyone really believe that Ratner PAYS people to surf the net and post on neighborhood blogs? If that's true, is he still hiring? Talk about a dream job!
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 11:29 AM
"Once and for all, does anyone really believe that Ratner PAYS people to surf the net and post on neighborhood blogs? If that's true, is he still hiring? Talk about a dream job!"
Clue phone: online advertising has replaced print..time's man of the year is the blogsphere...- yes, PR people realize this is where a lot of opinion is formed and yes there are product pluggers out there..
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 11:31 AM
But luckily we are so easily able to spot the Ratner shill-machine in action on this board because the only people who would work for him are absolute idiots! No IQ test! Love of Money! Family members! Politicians! Spellers and non-spellers alike!
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 11:45 AM
Don't forget to give props to the anti- Eminment Domain New York Sun where every other daily swallowed ESDC and Ratner jizz-- tastey, I'm sure.
To all the gloating jackoffs, aside from a slow painful death, I'd like anyo of you to explainm why
** Atlantic Center Mall remains
Just start there, then we'll get to the other questions (about Metrotech, scale, financing, etc.)
Fuck you very much,
Sergio
Posted by: Sergio Fiorentino at December 21, 2006 11:46 AM
Now's the time, people:
http://dddb.net/php/donate.php
Donate early. Donate often.
Posted by: chuck at December 21, 2006 11:47 AM
you came, you turned my life around, you built shopping malls. you stalled traffic. you came and you came without warning. but then you took the neighborhood away, oh ratner.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 11:48 AM
The Nets they suck. What a bunch of wimps can't even throw a punch. All you longtime residents who think your going to earn enough money to go to a Nets game Ha what a joke it will cost you 400 a game to take your little family. that is if you can cross Flatbush withour getting killed by the cars. My prediction in 12 years flatbush and atlantic will be hailed by the post as the Avenue of death.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 11:54 AM
R-E-A-L-L-Y-D-O-N-E-D-E-A-L!!!
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 11:55 AM
R-E-A-L-L-Y-O-N-T-H-E-P-A-Y-R-O-L-L!!!
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 11:57 AM
I think the overriding issue for a lot of people in the area is that this was forced upon us. I'm in Ft. Greene and was the one person amonst my friends to support the arena initially. Why? Because it was going to be an arena w/ a public park on the roof and some shopping and moderate to low income housing. I would gladly trade 50 nights a year of some traffic and noise for the jobs and opportunities.
But when suddenly there are 50+ story office towers going up, it became a problem. When the reality of the strain on the current infrastructure (electric grid, sewage, etc.) became more clear, it became a bigger problem.
I won't cry for anyone with millions of dollars to spend on brownstones because I don't have it, and would like to. But there are too many people who don't have a choice in where to live...period. They have more than one job, they're single parents, they have family here for generations, they can't afford a second car, they can't afford to move, etc. THAT'S the problem.
And yeah, the traffic is a nightmare. Many people chose to live in Bklyn to avoid the nightmare that is the crosstown bus on 23rd or 42nd St. That's now going to be the reality on Atlantic Ave., 4/5/6/7th Aves.
Final comment (and thanks for indulging me): politicians not from the neighborhood making this decision is like senators/congressmen from rural areas of the country deciding how much anti-terrorism funding NYC should get, and then cutting the budget and earmarking funds for their own states.
Posted by: JP at December 21, 2006 11:58 AM
I must say, it's great entertainment to see the DDDB folks throwing their hissyfits on this board. It hurts to lose, doesn't it? And since you have flopped in your efforts to defeat Ratner, all you can do is hope that the project fails. Very funny!
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 11:59 AM
Well said, JP!
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 12:00 PM
I would bet most people on this board who despise the concept of Ratner-ville are not members of DDDB. At least not yet. Now that the politicians who are supposed to represent us have shown that they are all good for nothing we will of course support DDDB and their lawsuit. Democracy will prevail and I guarantee you that you will still lose. No matter how you cut it Bruce you will lose. Because nobody is going to want to buy your badly designed condos. Especially not now when you have lost your beloved 421a tax exemptions so your condos will cost more than any sane person would spend on them. Plus who is going to want to live in the most densely populuated urban jungle in America? Nobody that's who. So you go ahead and knock yourself out trying to build something so big and ugly in our midst and we will defeat you.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 12:05 PM
R-E-A-L-L-Y-D-U-M-B-D-E-A-L!!!
Posted by: arnelo at December 21, 2006 12:06 PM
Anon 12:00pm -- just be glad I deleted the paragraph railing against the Ratner mailings with happy African American families on them. I thought that would be overkill.
Posted by: JP at December 21, 2006 12:14 PM
12:07PM - anonymous -- dude, you are so clearly working for Bruce. You want to talk about aggressive tactics? How about your penchant for paying off young children to wear ACORN shirts and threaten to rob and steal from residents in Prospect Heights, Fort Greene and Park Slope if AY isn't built? How about the kids in Endeavor shirts threatening to spit on people against the project at a public hearing? How about lying about the whole scale and cost of the project consistently?
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 12:19 PM
Well said, anon 12:07. In the end, DDDB members care more about being right then being effective. That's why ever last one of their efforts - elections, legal action, meetings, marches - have accomplished ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Their lawsuit will fare equally well.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 12:23 PM
11:06, 10:57 here. One wo/man's "shithole" (your word) is another's home "close to the action" (for lack of a better phrase.) I still maintain that Prospect Heights, Fort Greene, and northwestern Park Slope will remain desirable, only now desirable to people who want to live closer to a certain type of urban vibrancy, as opposed to what makes them attractive now, especially since not all of those desirable features will be lost in the transition. My apologies if that doesn't square with your (or my) opposition to the project.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 12:30 PM
The Politicians are all whores, from Pataki to Bloomberg to Markowitz and in a come-from-behind, winner-take-all, Silver.
I wouldn't let Ratner build me an outhouse. Crap-ass huckster cinderblock developer. For all of you who think Ratner's AY is a good thing, you are either hypnotized or on the take. I can't wait for this "vision" to be realized. Kiss downtown Brooklyn and all it could've been goodbye. Welcome to bait & switch "Frank who?... oh he did the stadium, then we got someone else"... who could make the ceilings lower, the windows smaller, the bricks uglier, and the overwhelming feeling that the last place on earth you would want to be is in downtown Brooklyn.
Why don't all of you supporters go hang out together on the second floor of the Atlantic Mall. You can marvel at the architectural vision, the blue dry wall corridors, the amazing planning and flow between stores, buildings and parking.. and then extrapolate it across 22 acres.
We are so fucked!
Here's a hail mary for a a judge with the cajones to derail this corrupt stinky mess.
Posted by: SeamusMacD at December 21, 2006 12:33 PM
The housing projects in Fort Greene were built back in an era when city planners actually had a say over size, and scale of projects. They are all set back from the street, not built very high up, and have thought out places for kids to play (playgrounds, basketball courts) and schools and police stations, fire houses, parking and greenways with benches. Atlantic Yards will offer its residents none of the ammenities that the housing projects offer in near by Fort Greene. So Bruce, dream on. There is no good reason why anybody would want to live in your high rises. Ha, ha. The joke is that your horror story will probably increase the prosperity in the other parts of Brooklyn as people will certainlly know the difference between your vision of the future and what they really want. Also it will be a boon to areas like Montclaire, and Morristown. People like space and air they can breathe. And when they flush their toilets they would rather not see their waste floating around in the canal behind the new Whole Foods on 3rd Ave.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 12:43 PM
Does anyone with any knowledge about real estate history have opinions on how this could affect property values in Clinton Hill?
Wow, I thought I was an angry person - this is some pretty intense dialogue.
Posted by: Willoughby Walk at December 21, 2006 12:49 PM
There is so much hyperbole and misinformation here I dont really know what to say - but one thing that I think is amussing is that people move to Brooklyn b/c they dont want Manhattan. Please - people move to Brooklyn b/c they cant afford Manhattan!
Please identify the Brownstone owners who wouldnt gladly trade their Brownstone in Brooklyn for the same one on the Upper Eastside, Westside or Village, Gramercy whatever.... Please show me the 2-3br Condo/Coop owner who could afford the equivelant in their favorite Manhattan neighborhood as well as the parking and the schooling who simply chose Brooklyn b/c he/she liked it better.
Posted by: David at December 21, 2006 1:09 PM
"Please - people move to Brooklyn b/c they cant afford Manhattan!"
I second this statement. The only possible exceptions are the "celebrity" types who are choosing to live in Brooklyn so that they can build "street cred".
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 1:27 PM
I live in Brooklyn because I grew up here and love it. With all the money in the world, I would buy here, not in Manhattan. While I agree that many people live in BK (hello Williamsburg) because they can't afford Manhattan, that's not the case for everyone.
Posted by: Willoughby Walk at December 21, 2006 1:32 PM
Correction, most of the Brooklyn newbies chose to live in Brooklyn becasue they cannot afford to live in Manhattan.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 1:50 PM
At this point Bruce's PR people have worked themselves in to such a lather of lies that I encourage the opponents of the AY project not to engage them directly on this blog because, well, it doesn't really help anything, and to direct your attention to the developdontdestroy.org website where you can read information about our neighborhoods and the fight to not let ratner and his paid off city and state and bogus non-profit goons ruin our neighborhoods. Also please consider donating to the effort to fund the lawsuit to stop him from using eminent doman it take over private land for a developer's financial gain.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 1:59 PM
1:16 is an architectural determinist. For many years, the Fort Greene Houses (as Whitman and Ingersoll were known before divided into two projects) were not (assuming your characterization is correct "miniature slums that trap residents into a vicious cycle of poverty, crime, hopelessness and despair!" Way too many factors in play for you to blame it all on physical design.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 2:01 PM
Nah, poster at 1:16 is a racist who has never actually been to these projects. They aren't being maintained properly by the city (elevator service and the like) but the fact is that the area near them is absolutely fine. There is a lovely charter school in the local elem school and it really feels nice in this area. It will not feel nice in and around what Ratner is planning on building. There will be wind tunnels that make it impossible to sit outside near the large buildings and there won't be enough outdoor space to accomodate the tens of thousands of new residents they propose to cram in like sardines in to their high rises. And the residents will certainly be locking their doors at night to keep out the drunken crowds from the 250 events per year at the arena. Here's to you Bruce!
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 2:07 PM
For what it's worth, I think Ratner got his plan approved at the height of a nationwide housing bubble, when every real estate deal was "guaranteed" to turn a huge, huge profit. Now he's going to start building at the beginning of a nationwide economic slowdown (resulting from the housing crash). Once he realizes that it's not going to be profitable, do you really think this project is going to be finished?
I don't think the lawsuits are going to stop this thing, but I do think they can delay the process long enough that the real estate realities in the city change and the whole thing gets scrapped.
Of course, in this scenario, no-one wins.
Posted by: sylvia at December 21, 2006 2:11 PM
This AY=Manhattan and people dont want Manhattan is the dumbest strawman argument ever. Because 1. AY (or other tall buildings) doesnt make Brooklyn=Manhattan and 2. People DO want Manhattan - not everyone - but more then want Brooklyn (price independent).
Some how neighborhoods across this city have managed to survive despite being near tall buildings, cultural institutions and large retail stores and I am sure that Ft Greene, Park Slope, Prospect Heights and Boreum Hill will survive too;
Posted by: David at December 21, 2006 2:11 PM
Survival is one thing. But why should some fat cat developer get to evict people from their homes and get subsidies to pay for it? This isn't democracy. This isn't what the boys are supposedly fighting for in Iraq folks. Yes, the Iraq argument is a long, complicated one. But let me tell you that your gradparents didn't hang out in trenches fighting in WWII for the chance for some guy in a fancy suit to take away your home. That's not what this country is all about. So we can only assume that your paid off arguments will take you so far. Politicians may be able to be bought. But the hearts and minds of ordinary tax paying citizens will know you Ratner as the evil man that you are. Absolute evil doesn't care what others think perhaps. But let me tell you we will win because we are right. And you will lose. And your family will be shamed by their association with you.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 2:18 PM
David, I really don't get your question. There are lots of people who'd never consider living in Manhattan no matter how much money they had. Some people actually dislike the city. That's consistent with the (plausible) claim that lots of folks who live in Brooklyn would rather live in Manhattan. But there are lots of people who'd rather live just about anywhere other than Manhattan, and so it's no surprise if some of them end up in Brooklyn.
As for the Clinton Hill resident who inquired about the impact of AY on property values, I don't know what to say. It's all over. We're all going to bleed through the nose I'm afraid.
Posted by: Ft. Greener at December 21, 2006 2:21 PM
This is one of the biggest taxpayer and land swindles in New York history. Even those who want a stadium should shudder at the way in which it was done.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 2:21 PM
I've seen 4-5 solicitations from DDDB on various blogs today. It's nice to see DDDB folks trolling to help pay the salary of Dan Goldstein's girlfriend. Do as I say and not...
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 2:27 PM
Man, are there a lot of assholes who post on this blog!
AY:
1. No guarantee of affordable housing. None. Ratner can back out entirely from the affordable housing component and there will be no penalty to him.
2. No new open space created. No park created. Ratner is being granted 22 acres of real estate, but there will be no net increase in public amenities. The so-called "open space" that is being promised consists of courtyards surrounded by high-rises. In fact, after AY is completed, the entire area will have less open space per resident than it does now, and it will be far, far below the city's stated goal.
3. Significant and undisclosed public subsidies: AY will benefit from a wide range of public subsidies, the full cost of which has been kept obscure. There has been no transparency as to public costs/public benefits. We, the public, have no idea exactly how much we will be paying for each affordable apartment, for example. Believe me, we will be paying, but Ratner and his political allies have successfully prevented us from knowing exactly how much. Meanwhile, the projected public revenues to be realized from the project have suddenly been slashed by a third, without explanation.
4. Extreme density: AY opponents support a higher level of density on the site, but are against extreme density. What's extreme? Well, AY will be the densest housing tract in the United States by a factor of two. Twice as dense as the densest blocks in the country.
5. Traffic: AY is expected to draw an additional 20,000 daily automobile trips to the corner of Flatbush and Atlantic. There is simply no plan in place to deal with this. This level of increase in traffic will have a huge ripple effect throughout Fort Greene, Prospect Heights, Park Slope and beyond. Look for gridlock along Atlantic, Flatbush, 4th and 5th Avenues.
6. Putting 22 acres of prime real estate into the hands of a developer with a terrible track record in Brooklyn: Ratner is responsible for two of the ugliest, most poorly designed large developments in Brooklyn -- Metrotech and Atlantic Center malls. These buildings have done absolutely nothing to enhance the urban environment -- indeed they seriously detract from it. And yet now we're giving Ratner 22 acres to build on! The mind boggles.
I could go on...
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 2:29 PM
Anon at 2:29 -- who are you? What organizations do you support? What non-profits do you contribute to?
Or are you just a FCR employees?
Occam's razor...
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 2:33 PM
I don't get the argument that this is a huge taxpayer ripoff. Isn't NYC, NYS and ESDC supplying only $200 million of the $4 billion funding? And as for tax revenues, won't there be a positive gain from the current revenues at the very least? And with respect to eminent domain, wasn't the vast majority of the land acquired from willing sellers? I'm not saying that this is totally fair, but isn't calling the project "one of the biggest taxpayer and land swindles in New York history" overstating the reality a bit.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 2:34 PM
What are the residential property values in the immediate vicinity of Madison Square Gardens?
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 2:36 PM
Anon at 2:34 -- Please go read Norm Oder's reporting at his Atlantic Yards Report website. Short answer -- there are MANY subsidies aside from the $200 million you mentioned.
As for tax revenues, yeah sure, any tax revenue is better than none. But that doesn't answer the question of whether the amount of subsidy that will be involved in AY is a good deal. IE, could we get a better return of subsidy to tax revenue with a different plan or a different developer. Perhaps you are not aware that another developer offered the MTA 50% more than Ratner but was not selected... Part of the whole problem with AY is that the development of an enormous piece of real estate is being driven ENTIRELY based on the needs of a single developer.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 2:39 PM
anon 2:34 said :I don't get the argument that this is a huge taxpayer ripoff. Isn't NYC, NYS and ESDC supplying only $200 million of the $4 billion funding?
Umm, no the funding is in the billions the state is issuing low interst loans via bonds to finance the project plus the infrastructure that Ratner's not paying for....at the end of the day this project could be a net loss for the state and city - and thus it will be one of the biggest taxpayer /land swindles in New York City history.
The 'profit' right now is from taxes to the state is projected at 994 million....that's with questionable best case accounting the ESDC won't release the financials - what does that tell you? this deal is nothing but a corrupt boondoggle, period.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 2:53 PM
The only GUARANTEED profit from this project is to forest city and that profit is being GUARANTEED by the state in the form of subsidies.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 2:54 PM
anon 2:34 said "And with respect to eminent domain, wasn't the vast majority of the land acquired from willing sellers?"
MTA land: 100 million below its value, 50 million below a higher competing bid.
as for the other land - it doesn't matter if 90% of it was acquired willingly. if a person or business doesn't want to sell to a private developer that should be his right. That's what the law is supposed to protect people from.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 2:57 PM
On the Manhattan vs. Bklyn argument: sure, many people live in Bklyn instead of Manhattan simply because of the cost, but not all. I could buy a decent place in Manhattan if I wanted, but don't want to leave the quieter, tree-lined streets, off-leash parks, and racial diversity. Anyone trying to equate Ft. Greene with the UES/UWS is cracked up.
And c'mon people, whoever you are, please don't hype some kind of threat from those consigned to living in the PJs. If you're smart enough to turn on and use a computer, you MUST be smart enough to understand the stupidity of your argument.
And you know, not to be too personal about it, but I don't think anyone can think that Ratner's buildings to date are anything but hideously ugly. I'd like to think that 3rd time is the charm, but there's no track record to speak of.
Posted by: JP at December 21, 2006 2:59 PM
"this project could be a net loss for the state and city - and thus it will be one of the biggest taxpayer/land swindles in New York City history."
That doesn't make any sense: "could be . . . will be"? The bottom line is that no one KNOWS that this will result in a loss for taxpayers. Questionable, yes. But certain loss, no. Otherwise it could not have passed politically. To call it a taxpayer "swindle" is just not being honest. This is not to say that the project is a good or even okay one overall. It's just that the hyperbole about it gets so annoying and distracting.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 3:02 PM
anon 2:57: Actually, the Constitution itself codifies the government's eminent domain power. To call it unlawful is just wrong.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 3:04 PM
The fact that we don't know whether AY will be a gain, a draw, or loss for taxpayers tells you everything you need to know about the lack of transparency here. And whenever a real estate developer and his political backers get together to draw a discrete veil over the details of the financing, I think we are only being prudent to ASSUME a swindle until proven otherwise!
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 3:05 PM
Funny, but the comment I'm angriest about in this lovely little soccer riot is the slanderous charge that if I had more money I'd live in Manhattan....
Posted by: BklynJace at December 21, 2006 3:06 PM
3:04 -- re the Constitution -- eminent domain is to be used for the public good, not for private gain.
In the case of AY, spurious public goods have been hawked in order to justify the use of eminent domain to benefit Ratner.
Especially since most or all of those public goods could be accomplished without eminent domain! IE, even if you believe that it will be a public benefit to have a sports arena at the corner of Atlantic and Flatbush, an arena could be built on property Ratner already owns, with the additional public good of tearing down the hideous and unpleasant malls he bought. And I like malls! But Atlantic Center is simply the most unpleasant place to shop I have ever been in.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 3:08 PM
anon 2:57 if eminent domain can be used to force homeowners to sell to billionaire developers like Ratner than NO home is safe. The Kelo decision was wrong, wrong wrong and one of the most damaging in American history. Robert Moses wouldn't dare use eminent domain to build a stadium...just look how far we have 'evolved' ...combined with TIF, NY state government has basically become a tool for corrupt developers like Bruce Ratner to raid the public coffers and ignore zoning laws and property rights...is this the sort of country you want to live in?
Posted by: some guy in brooklyn at December 21, 2006 3:18 PM
anon 320, if that was the case why is using outdated, failed urban planning principles like super blocks? he' s just a s clueless and destructive as he ever was, and always will be. If he did not get subsidies from the state NONE of his projects would make a profit. None would make a profit in the middle of one of the biggest real estate booms in history...what does that tell you about Ratner's particular form of genius?
Posted by: some guy in brooklyn at December 21, 2006 3:24 PM
clinton hill prop values will just keep going up as a result of this project as they are far enough removed from where construction will take place and quite far from the arena site. The blocks of Prospect Heights and Ft. Greene that are adjacent to, or within a block or two, of AY are the areas that will need to be concerned about being close to the arena and near the construction. Who knows how those property values will shake out. Long term, it will, imo, mean higher values and higher rents all around, so even faster gentrification.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 3:30 PM
Yeah, you keep dreaming. Ratner is going to produce a monstrosity. It will be cheaply and poorly constructed. It will be ugly. Its design will be inefficient and stupid. It will be the biggest eyesore in Brooklyn, perhaps in all of NYC. If you think this will help property values, then I'd be happy to sell you some property adjacent to a big nasty crackhouse in East New York.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 3:45 PM
The general housing market for NYC will be the determining factor in future 'values' or properties in surrounding areas - rather than this project - for better or worse.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 3:46 PM
The idea that the majority of Brooklynites would rather live in Manhattan is absurd, based on my unscientific survey. I have lived in Brooklyn for my entire 19 years in NYC. I had many opportunities to live in Manhattan (West Village, East Village, UWS) but I, and many of my neighbors, prefer the scale, quiet, and pace of Brooklyn. The idea that Brooklyn is a borough of wannabe-Manhattanites too poor to live their dreams is some sort of deluded fable.
Posted by: punko at December 21, 2006 3:48 PM
False. There's never just one factor that determines property values. One thing's for sure, though: being situated close to a gigantic eyesore is a very potent factor when it comes to driving down property values.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 3:50 PM
Guess which fatcat Fort Greene realtor is on Ratner's payroll?
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 3:51 PM
I think need to change name of project.
Atlantic Yards sounds like a penitentiary. Ratnerville sounds like name of bad movie.
I'm all up for suggestions.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 3:52 PM
"Atlantic Yards sounds like a penitentiary. Ratnerville sounds like name of bad movie. "
In that case, both terms are entirely appropriate.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 4:00 PM
I live in Prospect Heights, two blocks from the proposed AY site, and there's no question that this development will adversely affect property values. I've already seen houses in the immediate vicinity sell for 20% less than two years ago -- that's WAY more than can be attributed to the slowing of the market. Be real, everything else being equal, why would any buyer choose to expose themselves to 20 years of construction madness?! (FCR says it'll take 10-15 years to build out; they also said Metrotech would take 5 years and it ended up taking 14.)
Posted by: NeoGrec at December 21, 2006 4:04 PM
I agree, that's why if you are in clinton hill, part slope or other such nabes a bit further away, you'll be insulated from the construction madness and resulting property value issues during those years.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 4:07 PM
Everything is connected. AY, the Downtown Brooklyn Plan, the redevelopment of the Westside, the rebuilding of Yankee and Shea Stadiums, the LIRR-Grand Central spur, the 2nd Ave line, Ground Zero etc etc. Some of this will be great for the city; some of it disastrous.
But right now the political cabal at City Hall and in Albany (Bloomberg, Doctoroff, Spitzer, Silver etc) are looking back to history and the dubious legacy of Robert Moses. They want a new "master builder" and an over-arching plan to accomodate the growth in the city that Bloomberg has been trumpeting in recent weeks. Certainly NYC desperately needs a new vision of urban planning but what these politicos have in mind will erase local input (from either the public or elected officials) and hand control over to the private sector: FCR, Toll Brothers, etc etc.
If you think the Moses analogy is far-fetched just consider that Kate Levin, commissioner of the Dept of Cultural Affairs, is currently promoting not one but 3 public events aimed at erasing his reputation as an autocrat who elevated cars above people, and destroyed working class communities in Red Hook and the Bronx, to a visionary who points the way to the future. One of the events is even entitled "Slum Clearance and the Superblock Solution."
Perhaps we're at a similar growth point to what happened with the demolition of Penn Station -- that battle was lost but a new urban preservation movement rose from the ashes. The fight to change AY is not over yet but Brooklynites need to reach out to other groups in the city -- both grassroots and institutional -- to explore the possibility of creating a new coalition that will insure more oversight and public input for these huge projects that will reshape our city in the coming years.
Posted by: What's ahead? at December 21, 2006 4:26 PM
If more people prefered to move to Brooklyn then Manhattan, the prices in Brooklyn would be higher than Manhattan (for the equivelant home), -they arent (by significant margin) hence it is a fact, more people desire to move to Manhattan.
It is also inconsisstent to say that AY will cause housing prices to fall and then say that AY will cause more gentrification.
Here is my prediction - in 10 yrs - AY will be exactly like Atlantic Terminal - a whole group of Brooklynites will bomoan its existence, say how ugly, cheap, and annoying it is at the same time they (and everyone else) frequents it in record numbers thereby making it an economic asset for the boro as a whole,
Posted by: David at December 21, 2006 4:27 PM
David -- You must be f'ing kidding! Brooklynites are flocking to the Atlantic Terminal/Center malls in "record numbers"??? Wow, you completely discredited yourself with that one.
Your argument that people prefer to live in Manhattan rather than Brooklyn based on real estate prices doesn't quite hold water, by the way. You seem to have forgotten about the supply part of that ole supply/demand thing.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 4:34 PM
Are you incapable of telling the truth or are you so blinded by agenda that you cant see reality; This is the exhibit (at the museum of the city of NY - supported by a grant from the New York Council for the Humanities.) you describe as rehabilitating Robert Moses as a "visionary who points the way to the future":
Robert Moses and the Modern City: Remaking the Metropolis
January 27th - May 6th
New York
Cross Bronx Expressway at Night, 2006, Copyright Andrew Moore
Robert Moses and the Modern City: Remaking the Metropolis focuses on the extensive physical transformation of New York City guided by Robert Moses from 1934 to 1968. Believing that “the city must be saved,” Robert Moses built a network of roads and bridges, including the Triborough Bridge, to bring people to the city, initiated attractions such as Lincoln Center, and revitalized city parks, including Central Park. At the same time, his projects disrupted neighborhoods and increased the city’s dependence on the automobile. The exhibition explores the controversial vision of this important force in planning and development and considers his legacy in the context of the urban issues of his time. Documents, photographs, publicity brochures, and never before exhibited three dimensional models of Moses’ projects – both realized and failed – trace the complicated history of this controversial figure.
The exhibition will be complemented by concurrent exhibitions: Robert Moses and the Modern City: The Road to Recreation at the Queens Museum of Art and Robert Moses and the Modern City: Slum Clearance and the Superblock Solution at the Wallach Gallery of Columbia University. A related book co-edited by curator Hilary Ballon and Kenneth T. Jackson will be published by W.W. Norton.
Museum of the City of New York
1220 Fifth Avenue, New York
Posted by: David at December 21, 2006 4:36 PM
children - lets drop the brooklyn manhattan thing and talk about NYCs future.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 4:38 PM
to David 4:27 PM,
The current penn station is an economic asset for the City but still an armpit compared to the old Penn Station and what could have been developed there instead. That's the folly of the proposed AY development. It is a huge missed ooportunity that has been managed in a godawful way.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 4:40 PM
Actually I havent forgot the supply side - according to the US census Brooklyn has approx 1.5m housing units for a population of 2.4million and Manhattan has approx 1.3m housing units for a population of 1.5m - so at least on a macro view it would seem that Brooklyn has a greater supply shortage as well.
And yes the Atlantic Terminal has one of the highest grossing Target stores in North America.
Posted by: David at December 21, 2006 4:52 PM
David, you're the same guy that said you couldn't see any reason why all that empty land (forests) shouldn't be developed as well. Not everything is measured in money and spread sheets David. According to your logic you would have no problem building high rise condos in Brooklyn Heights or Nantucket for that matter, right?
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 4:55 PM
This thread provides one example after another of the histrionic approach by AY opponents. Such hyperbole is a major reason why they have flopped. The above poster makes an excellent point about donating to DDDB. They are, indeed, useless at this point. Any $ donated will be wasted on a lawsuit that is doomed to fail.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 4:56 PM
David: So you have no problem with big companies being subsidized by the government to drive out local retailers? You have no problem with eminent domain abuse, with out of scale development, ignoring zoning laws? other than money what do you care about?
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 4:57 PM
to Anonymous at 4:40 except they arent replacing an 'old' Atlantic Yards with a new one - there is no arena, retail, office or residential on the vast majority of the site - so the Penn Station comparison just doesnt work.
As to the lost 'potential' - there is no 'correct' answer on that- most of the posters here seeminglly would say AY is a nightmare if they used sheetrock or put balcanies on anything, even if it was 15 stories or less.
Posted by: David at December 21, 2006 4:59 PM
Anon @ 4:55 and 4:57 Love the strawman arguments - I never said anything like that. I actually dont think we should 'develop' our forests - I think we should develop (as densely as possible) a virtually empty hole situated above one of the largest transportation hubs in the country - for precisely the reason that I think it is ecologically the correct thing to do - the fact that it will most likely increase the tax base and property values is just a bonus.
And no I am for historic preservation so I probably wouldnt support a high rise in the middle of Brooklyn Heights (and certainly not Nantucket for the reasons I already said) but if they wanted to build 30 story buildings along court street - I'd have no problem with that...oh wait ... they already did that - 50yrs ago and amazingly we all survived.
Posted by: David at December 21, 2006 5:06 PM
David, you clearly don't know anything about what "most" anti-AY posters would say if the development project had been created in consultation with the surrounding community. I, for one, would absolutely welcome development on the AY site at 12-16 stories. But of course that's not what's on the table.
BUt why am I wasting time arguing with a Ratner hired pen? The joke's on me, clearly.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 5:07 PM
Well, David, thanks for acknowledging what's obvious -- that you care nothing about neighborhoods or communities but only about building as "densely as possible". ANd what defines "as possible"? Are there any limits, in your mind? Or just the limit of how high a building can be built?
Your mention of Court St. is idiotic. The highrise buildings on Court St. are in the downtown of Court St. Where is there a 30 story building in the midst of Carroll Gardens? But clearly you'd be in favor of that as well.
What an ass!
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 5:10 PM
Well since Court St is as 'in the midst' of Brooklyn Heights as Atlantic Yards is of Prospect Heights, Park Slope and Ft. Greene it isnt 'idiotic' it is an exact analogy.
The posters HERE have made it abudently clear that in the majority they hate the vast majority of new construction, think sheetrock construction is cheap and terrible and think balcanies are generally ugly and should be hidden.
As for me being a 'hired pen' I dont mind you thinking so, as it makes me feel less stupid for posting here all the time for nothing more then the satisfaction that 95% of the arguments apparently cant be met with anything better then hyperbole, strawmen and name calling.
Posted by: David at December 21, 2006 5:15 PM
David,
I object to the lack of transparency,
to corrupt sham of a public process
I object to eminent domain abuse.
I would like to see the yards developed in a way that works. I am against AY because it clearly doesn't.
As i said earlier I don't think any honest person should be happy or complacent about the sham of a process that has gotten us to point. If Ratner suceeds it's not just those neigborhoods that will suffer it will be any place in the target of a corrupt developer like Ratner.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 5:23 PM
Sadly now matter how smart our arguments for opposing the AY proposal is it seems as if we are losing. This is good reason to help out DDDB. Don't let the Ratner goons make you think the war is over. It's only just begun. And this time the opponents are much more optimistic about getting a fair shake.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 6:03 PM
5:23 makes a very sane point after so many useless ones.
6:03: What other options are there at this point. Litigation of the eminent domain issue will fail. The Supreme Court made that clear. How else could you stop the ground breaking?
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 6:05 PM
As evidenced by those who attended the forums and the public hearings. Those who are in favor of this project are ALL ON THE PAYROLL in some way: a bought out existing organization that was broke (ACORN, BUILD), union members who were paid to be there, kids paid by organizations which were in turn paid by Ratner, wives of union workers again who were paid to be there as bogus women in favor of development groups, and paid off politicians. So the bozos who are on this board are certainly some sort of stakeholders with a handout getting paid by Ratner. Because there was literally NOBODY IN FAVOR OF IT other than those on the payroll. Ratner even paid models to appear in his pamphlets touting the yards that hate the idea of the project. There literally are only sleazebags in favor of this thing. That's it. And if you think we believe otherwise you are on crack. That is something I do think will be found at the Atlantic Yards complex by the way. I can get it off the street in front of MSG whenever I want it. And perhaps that's what they are smoking over at Ratner-central?
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 6:51 PM
AY will be great for the future of Brooklyn! And I\'ll tell you this much, I absolutely DARE any of your critics to come down to the site after construction has begun and cause trouble. I dare you, I DOUBLE DARE you! We\'ll teach you a lesson the old fashioned way.
Want trouble? Well then....
COME GET YOU SOME!
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 6:58 PM
Cause trouble at your construction site? Hello? There won't be a construction site because this project isn't going to go through. Dream on! You are going to have to spend your days dreaming about bulldozing another neighborhood because a judge is going to stop you goons from tearing down this one.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 7:20 PM
Yes, we are fools to want a low rise housing project. Look, Mr. Gehry, You are old enough to know better than to think that what this community needs is a way to separate people from the exciting streetscape that is brownstone living. And by brownstone living I don't literally mean brownstones, but the idea that the street is accessible to all and the sidewalks are a place to meet your neighbor and for kids to hang out with their friends. What you are creating is the type of housing project they literally blew up in Chicago because it encouraged social apathy with its enormouos buildings. I don't care if there's going to be rich or poor people in those huge buildings, they are just too big and there's too little outdoor space to make it a place anybody is going to want to live in. Let's see, meet me at my pad in apt. 40D....ha, ha! Who is going to want to live like that? Nobody who lived through 9/11/01 in this city. So if you are banking on dumb out of towners think again. I don't think that new development called Forte is selling very well. And they've got only 1 building with 30 stories. You will be lucky if you sell even 1 unit.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 7:25 PM
I'm reading all the comments from AY supporters and something has become apparent. This is how a retard like Bush got to be President. Because SOME people would send our world to hell in a handbasket simply for an opportunity to vote against people they deride as liberal NIMBYs. Why the f*ck do you all even care about the personality traits of the AY opponents? What does that have to do with ANYTHING?
And I love how when it comes to things like toxic dumping or nuclear plants, everyone loves what NIMBYs can accomplish for a community. But when it comes to messing with their beloved basketball, forget it. Good thing you all know your priorities.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 7:27 PM
12/21 at 6:58pm, what you're saying is a threat and it's illegal.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 7:32 PM
This will be the least hip, least appealing development in NYC. What a loser this piece of crap will be. Supporters can debate it all they want, but unless they themselves can afford to buy all the luxury units in the AY buildings, this development will be a failure.
As for who tends to spend lots of money on luxury developments in Brooklyn? Hmmmm, let's think, oh right - rich liberals. Uh, you know, the kind that are very against AY.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 7:38 PM
I like peanut butter.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 7:38 PM
7;32 that's why he said it through an anon proxy (notice the / symbols replacing the ' symbols. Notice its a ratner supporter. No surpise.
anon 6:42 You're lying but that's not surprising for a fOrest city employee.
IF this project is so good why are the financials hidden? why has the developer NEVER sent a flyer out showing the actual project instead, they sent out deceptive flyers implying the project was low scale and mostly open space.
Your own lies and deceptions prove the point of AY opponents you know the design and financials are a liability that is why you have tried to hide it from the public.
Private sector investing? Wow, I guess if you're going to lie, lie big.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 7:56 PM
folks who have just arrived: nobody on here is a supporter of this project. they are all paid off to support it. this is what makes this whole thing so sad. nobody actually supports it at all. it's all about money. what else could it be? the rich guys in suits started to realize they couldn't make money the old fashioned way they'd have to steal it. and they picked brooklyn precisely because it's the home of so many horrible paid off politicians. hopefully the judges will rule against eminent domain. and i'd like to hear our new state assemblyman, mr. jeffries (sp?) explain why he didn't campaign against the yards and has only said that he hopes the PACB would rule on this later on. Please. You are going to have a whole lot of explaining to do to your constituents. Enough of this all being a nice guy and having meetings with other Assemblymen. Why didn't you stand up with Tish James like you should have? We all know that the State Assembly doesn't ask much in terms of time requirements for elected officials. But please know that we are all going to remember Tish James was the only politician who stood up against Ratner. So everybody please put in a call to your local elected officials and thank them for doing nothing tomorrow.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 8:04 PM
I disagree. The reason Gore didn't win the election in 2000 was because the dems and other liberal groups were too factionalized. Remember Nader won a number of votes in Florida too. I hate the Atlantic Yards. But the fact that Ratner had a clear (albeit evil, full of lies) message that was heavily funded and that he paid off loudmouth, heavy handed supporters like ACORN and the unions, swayed this issue for our local politicians. We should all learn from this experience. Get to know your elected officials. Realize that their system works on money. (Sad but true.) If you want to win them over to your cause you must be prepared to organize a huge amount of fundraising to get yourself any attention. There are some exceptions in the local political arena, but they are few and far between. Money rules our system. And it's not a democracy. It's a representative system. And that's why these sleazy politicians think that they can do whatever they want. If you want to take back the power be prepared to spend some significant bucks. That's what Ratner did. And unless this judge rules against him then it was money well spent in his mind I'm sure. People we can organize. But you can't start fighting about how. Join an existing group like Develop Don't Destroy and let them fight for the rights of our neighborhoods. That is how it's done in the big world of politics. Money and might talks. Let's help DDDB make some impact. Or else we will all be bitching about how Wal-Mart is shutting down our local stores when they move in to the neighborhood as is rumored or who knows what else.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 8:14 PM
I'll tell you who I'm giving money to. And my votes, too. Every single future candidate who runs against the corrupt encumbents who let this thing go through without proper debate.
It's a promise.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 9:17 PM
of all the lies from anon 6:42 this is the most humorous:
I support elected officials who take into account the next fifty years and plan accordingly.
Yeah, great 'plan' to deal with trafic and infrastructure...oh and this lie funny too:
I support a private sector that is wiling to invest a significant amount of money in our borough.
you didn't mention whose money this 'private sector' is investing- taxpayers.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 9:27 PM
i wonder if this will have any palpable impact on my neighborhood, PLG. not asking for the hysteria that normally ensues when the acronym surfaces, just a reasoned opinion. thanks. oh, and while i dislike ratner and his ilk, i must admit to some guilty excitement at the prospect of having NBA basketball games taking place three train stops away.
Posted by: franz fanonymous at December 21, 2006 9:48 PM
PLG is another neighborhood that will almost certainly be destroyed by AY.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 21, 2006 10:26 PM
Franz,
IMO the impact of AY on PLG will be minimal. We're far enough away so that we will not be very much bothered by construction. Of course, traffic on game nights may back up as far as our neighborhood and the Manhattan Bridge will no longer be a viable option for driving into Manhattan.
FWIW, I'm still opposed to the project because of the negative impact it's likely to have on the closer-in brownstone neighborhoods, and the fact that it's a really ugly project designed by a once great architect who's become a hack.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at December 21, 2006 11:02 PM
No neighborhood will be "destroyed". But all commuters from all neighborhoods will be affected because almost all the trains in Brooklyn go through the Atlantic/Pacific station which is where the massive hoards of AY residents will be piling on.
P.S. It's so true, Gehry is a hack! And a whore. Hack whore.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 22, 2006 12:06 AM
No, Gehry needs to get laid.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 22, 2006 12:39 AM
this comment board is friggin blighted!
Posted by: gargano at December 22, 2006 12:39 AM
this is such a tragedy. Ironic thing is that I just got a brochure (mass mailer) on AY yesterday from BrooklynSpeaks.net. It contained a tear out form/letter that was addressed to Spitzer and Silver. And I wondered, how much of an impact it might have made if we had all received the mass mailer earlier, maybe last week. By the time I got the brochure, it was a done-deal.
I'm partly to blame because I should have gotten out there and done something instead of watching the drama unfold passively from the sidelines.
To all those picketers who got spat upon for just voicing your dissent, my heart goes out for you.
All I can say is that this project has had a bad legacy from the start. Alls well that ends well.
I personally will not set foot within the confines of AY, neither will I support any of its establishments.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 22, 2006 12:40 AM
If only the PACB debate were as spirited as this one.
Posted by: Archiefina at December 22, 2006 12:44 AM
So the moderate supporters and the moderate opponents of Ratner failed to get any concessions. I do like the MAS quote that this is a public-private partnership where the public had no input.
So, unfortunately, the only way the get any public input is through the courts. And that means going to DDDb.net and donating. Whether you like it or not, DDDb is the only group who was realistic enough to see that there is no transparency in this project.
I'm a DDDb partisan, and obviously I know DDDb has a reputation of being extreme. But go to the friggin website and judge for yourself.
Posted by: noon at December 22, 2006 1:27 AM
Oh B.S. why should the guy donate the only money that will allow him to buy another home, after he's being forced out of his current one? He didn't buy his apartment yesterday, but rather years ago, and there IS something called inflation.
Ratner employees please go away. Everyone knows who you are. It's pathetic you keep coming back here pretending to be regular folk just posting your opinions.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 22, 2006 9:09 AM
Fat chance on Mr. Goldstein donating a penny of his windfall to charity. I predict that he'll take the money, buy a fancy property far from New York, and return to work for the corporate world he purports to detest.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 22, 2006 1:22 PM
"Shame on you DDDB for playing on the fears of the community simply to enrich Dan Goldstein and his attorney friends."
Nice efforts by Forest City Ratner Employees to divert funding of this lawsuit. Rest assured, they are VERY afraid because they know if a judge grants discovery, it will prove, beyond a shadow of doubt this was a developer driven project. You can bet that Charlie Gargano & Co. are deleting emails and documents like mad now - but they have been too hasty, too sloppy.
I will say it again. Unless you're a forest city stock holder, this whole process should disgust you. It's an outright robbing of the public coffers to enrich bruce and his friends. I honestly hope enough damming evidence emerges to send Bruce to jail, where he belongs. He's as low a scumbag as you can find.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 22, 2006 3:43 PM
Anon 3:43 provides a nice example of the defense mechanism called projection, whereby a person places his or her unacceptable feelings onto another. Ratner has nothing to fear. He is rich and powerful beyond everyone's wildest dreams, whereas DDDB is comprised of inexperienced pipsqueaks who will be easily defeated. What else could you expect from people who can do little more than accuse anyone who disagrees with them of being a Ratner employee? Not exactly a cerebral response. Losers!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Anonymous at December 22, 2006 10:25 PM
this comment board is BLIGHTED!!
that slippery goldstein guy, using the whole community so he can get rich. what a scum that guy is.
but ratner, god LOVE him. not only does he use the whole community like that pipsqueak goldstein, but outdoes him and uses the government too so he can grab 22 acres in brooklyn's real estate belt. what a tricky bastard bruce is.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 23, 2006 7:47 PM
I look forward to one day cheering the Nets while sitting in the stadium that used to be Dan Goldstein's home. One person cannot stop progress.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 26, 2006 9:02 AM
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