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March 19, 2007
Using Meier to Sell Brooklyn to Manhattanites
Are Manhattanites ready to pay Manhattan prices for an apartment in Brooklyn, albeit one designed by arguably the biggest brand name architect in town, Richard Meier? It's too early to tell, but Mario Procida, the developer behind On Prospect Park is betting a lot of money that the answer is yes. As his brother puts it, "There are always 100 rich people who will pay for a piece of fine art...Mario's got the only piece of fine art in Brooklyn." Since opening for business in late October, somewhere north of 12 units (or about 10 percent of the inventory) have been sold. Asking prices are around $1,200 a foot, an untested milestone for the borough. Procida says his costs are well over $700 a foot and The Times estimates that he would have trouble breaking even at $850 a foot. Clearly sales haven't been as fast as hoped, but, to be fair, the building is not complete yet and most people have a hard time with "the vision thing." In his targeting of Manhattan buyers, the developer has gone so far as to locate the building's sales office in Tribeca. Other developers question this strategy: "I think the Brooklyn buyer is a Brooklynite," says a partner from the Clarett Group, which is building the Forte high-rise on Fulton Street in Fort Greene. Do you think OPP is going to sell out at or near the current asking prices? And to do so, will it have to be mostly Manhattanites doing the buying?
Betting on Star Power [NY Times]
Photo by Tracy Collins
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Comments
Personally, I don't know any Brooklynites who could afford this and who wouldn't prefer to instead own a nice house instead.
Posted by: Kel at March 19, 2007 8:49 AM
I put down the $400 to get the docs and probably will buy a 2 bedroom in the back of building. I think you are right that this is a building for brooklynites. when i was there yesterday at the Leonard Street office I spoke with two young architects who are also looking seriously at the bldg after buying and selling quickly in williamsburg. I am looking for something that will increase in value, some downsizing from a 2000 sq. foot apartment and staying in the neighborhood.
Posted by: kathy at March 19, 2007 8:51 AM
Manhattanites all the way.
Posted by: City Slicker at March 19, 2007 8:52 AM
it's damn expensive, but considering a richard meir building in manhattan is $3000 sq ft it's a deal...if you want richard meir. i think all of his buildings look the same and might have been revolutionary 20yrs ago, but his designs need to evolve.
Posted by: anon at March 19, 2007 9:00 AM
My problem with this building is the location, its on the "wrong" side of eastern parkway to be asking those types of prices. Id expect it to be on the other side, right on the park or at least with direct views. The website is disceptive in my opinion, in terms of proximity to Prospect Park. That said, the finishes are lovely and the glass walls are amazing. But no way Id pay that price on that side of the street with the large number of tenement housing.
Posted by: MJ at March 19, 2007 9:07 AM
So people are betting prices will rise from 1200USD to 1500USD shortly?
No way!!
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 9:08 AM
That's the real difference between a Manhattan developer and a Brooklyn Developer. In Brooklyn, we are happy to make profits of $200 a square foot. In Manhattan, and in developments by Manhattan developers like this one, it pains the developer to consider having to sell for $1200 a square foot when his costs are around $800 a square foot. To make a paltry $400 a square foot on a project of this size is an insult that must be hard for the developer to bear. If this were Manhattan, his costs may have been $1200 a squre foot, but he would be selling for $2000 a squre foot in a building like this.
This is a bit of an oversimplification, but a 200,000 square foot project that costs $800 a square foot to build would have total costs of $160 million. Usually you would reduce the gross square footage by 10-15% for hallways and non-sellable space, but this building seems to be pretty efficient in its space usage, so we'll put that number at 5% and subtract 10,000 square feet from the sellable amount. 190,000 square feet at $1200 a square foot equals a gross sellout of $228m. I'm guessing that he's including his marketing costs in his cost estimate of "over $700" (let's say $800 to make it easy). This would make his net profit $68m. Now traditionally on projects of this size, the bank will require 20% developer cash into the project or $43m. With 20% of his own money in the project he will make $68m on his invesmtnet of $43m or a roughly 150% ROI (return on investment). If he has a good track record with his bank and solid financials or decided to use mezzanine financing, he could do the project with as little as 10% into the project, making his total invesment as little as $22.8 and his ROI around 300%.
Posted by: Shahn Andersen at March 19, 2007 9:15 AM
Maybe, but that's a cumulative, not annualized return. When you take the geometric mean of the return over the three years the project has taken, your annualized return is 100% at best and 50% at worst.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 9:22 AM
Kel at 8:49, as someone who bought a "nice house" and is in the middle of difficult renovations, I for one can completely understand if some people have no interest in owning an old house. For some people, an old house to constantly tinker with is heaven, and for some it would be their biggest nightmare.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 9:42 AM
Brooklyn is the next Manhattan! I wonder what borough will be the next Brooklyn?
Posted by: Jossie at March 19, 2007 9:48 AM
Queens is already starting to take off.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 9:51 AM
I agree that GAP is a pain to cross and the building is overpriced, but to suggest that there are "tenements" on that side of the street means you clearly haven't spent much time on Eastern Parkway in the last 15 years....
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 10:19 AM
The Bronx is a best bet. The housing in much of the Bronx is of a much higher quality than Brooklyn - Thousands of apartment buildings were constructed as middle-class residences during the 1920s. Subway service in th Bronx is also excellent. Distant parts of Brooklyn will never take off without major investment in new service - but virtually all of the Bronx is 45 minutes or less from Midtown, where everyone works these days.
Rent regulations obviously make it difficult to get the parasites out, but it's not impossible.
Let's not forget the Bronx has the most parkland per capita.
Want to make a good long term investment? Buy a Art Deco apartment building on the Grand Concourse.
Posted by: Eryximachus at March 19, 2007 10:21 AM
I've thought of buying in the Meier building because I love running in Prospect Park, but friends in Brooklyn tell me the walking distance to restaurants/bars is too far and that's probably my #1 concern. Also, the congestion/noise from that huge intersection bothers me.
I'd much rather buy a crappy brownstone and renovate/restore it myself for the same price or maybe less.
Posted by: Jake the Snake at March 19, 2007 10:21 AM
i don't agree that this is far from the park. if you consider crossing a street, far, then perhaps.
it's the exact same distance the time warner center is to central park, and that building seems to have done ok.
in terms of a walk to restaurants, it's a very short walk over to 7th avenue in park slope, and even shorter walk to vanderbilt avenue with some nice places and maybe a 10-15 minute walk to 5th avenue in park slope.
once the weather gets warmer, i think this place will start doing a little better. spring draws the crowds out in park slope/prosepct heights like no other neighborhood i've seen. i really do think it's a nice looking building.
Posted by: jm at March 19, 2007 10:29 AM
we went to the sales office and it was a little creepy, everything in white, the soft, soothing music. it reminded my wife of 'the island' (movie), like we were all being mind-warped. she also didn't like the fact that everything in the kitchen was 'hidden' in cupboards and such - for example the exhaust fan is behind another set of white cupboards. anyway, we would probably have bought one except we need to move before oct 08
Posted by: dab at March 19, 2007 10:47 AM
I hope this building does well, if only to encourage higher end development in the borough.
One of my fears is that if this project fails, Brooklyn will be left to the Scaranos and Boymelgreens that only build lower-end crap.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 10:49 AM
I think the comparison to Time Warner is a bit odd- considering the TW center is a "destination" in itself in a way that One Prospect most certainly is not. Lets face it, you'd move to 1PP for the general neighborhood- museum, park, and library. But there is really nothing in that immidiate area on that side of the street that should command those prices. Also, I used to live on the back side on One Prospect and I can assure you, anon 10:19, that there are DEFINITELY tons of tenements. I dont mean directly on Eastern Parkway. But Linoln Place, etc, has tons, and so do the surrounding blocks. Im not knocking the building, I actually think it is lovely and adore that aesthetic, but very overpriced for location.
Posted by: MJ at March 19, 2007 10:54 AM
i gave time warner as an example because of the proximity to the park as some were saying it didn't justify the price being so far from the park.
it is not far. at all. it's a few steps.
and in terms of any other comparison...it's not all that off the mark. the direct correlation between the development that has occurred around the time warner center (which before it was built was not the greatest neighborhood in the world) has been quite extensive.
given the amount already invested in prospect heights and the continuing development that has been occurring, there are some similarities.
of course there is no retail component, and you are right, it is not a tourist destination (which in my mind makes on prospect park more desirable), but the location is a very nice one. and people will be paying for the chance to live in a meier building, with access to the park, museum, library, farmers market, etc. i don't think the tenements you speak of would deter anyone anymore than the tenenments all over hells kitchen and the east village that are interspersed with high end condos.
Posted by: jm at March 19, 2007 11:05 AM
tenements? MJ -- when was the last time you walked down St. Johns Place?
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 11:08 AM
I concur 100%; The Bronx is the next modern Brooklyn...for the reasons Eryximachus said, however people think of Brooklyn (or the Bronx) being expensive areas as strange should really look at history. The aborration is the period of hyper (c1955-1985) suburbanization which decimated many part of NYC. Brooklyn and the Bronx coming back makes perfect sense given their histories.
Posted by: David at March 19, 2007 11:10 AM
I prefer houses and do not believe it is possible for any rational person to believe differently from me.
Posted by: linusvanpelt at March 19, 2007 11:17 AM
we hear complaints for Scarano, whom designs not as bad buildings as many others...... we hear complaints for even worst s..t than scarano and now we hear complaints for richard meier?????, what do we want? the building is great! and it is expensive. If you can't afford it, fine don't buy it or make to many comments, you have the money? don't listen to this crap! get it, is the greatest condo of brooklyn!!!!!
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 11:20 AM
while the bronx might be a stop on the gentrification train at some point, i think it will probably be a good 20-30 years before anything significant changes. most people (even if only because of the name bronx) will move farther out into brooklyn and queeens before they start moving to the grand concourse. i really think that the bronx as a destination or viable place for most of us to live is probably a good way off.
that is not to say that it's not a good investment and i realize things are improving, but those that gentrified ps, cobble hill, carroll gardens, heights, prospect heights, ft. greene, kensington etc....i see them going into sunset park, ditmars, flatbush, even bayridge far before they start making a trek to the bronx. it is not family friendly and the schools would need a total overhaul to get any families in there in any significant numbers.
Posted by: anon at March 19, 2007 11:24 AM
they'll sell at $1000 pst and everyone will be happy.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 11:29 AM
linusvanpelt, I understand your position. Mine is the opposite. Brownstones don't offer the same natural light or volume of spaces as well-planned apartments. Those things are more important to me, as is not living vertically over several floors. To each his own.
Posted by: debre at March 19, 2007 11:38 AM
I am usually a fan of Meier's but I think this building is careless looking. I don't think it is a good example of his work. The building looks like crap and nobody is saying it. I think it is an Emperor's clothes situation b/c nobody wants to appear unsophisticated.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 11:43 AM
the bronx has the highest asthma rate and the largest number of brownfields per capita. Queens (L.I.C.) is next.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 11:44 AM
"The building looks like crap and nobody is saying it."
maybe we aren't saying it because that is your opinion and i personally don't agree at all. i live in north park slope and walk by it everyday and think the building looks quite good.
we are entitled to our opinions and just because you happen not to like it does not make it crap.
Posted by: anonymous at March 19, 2007 11:48 AM
So true, 11:43, nobody criticizes the big architects' work anymore because they're afraid they'll seem unsophisticated. I can't stand Richard Meier. His Getty museum in L.A. is one of the ugliest buildings I've ever seen. Meier fought tooth and nail to have the rough-sided marble on that building and it was a terrible choice. All the shiny white plastic on the choo-choo train stops there, are bad too. I kept thinking it reminded me of storm trooper body armor. Not in a cool way.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 11:54 AM
Albany is the new Manhattan. Manhattan is the new Dubai. Screw the middle class. Build it from glass and people with no class will give up their cash because everyone wants to live on some new tacky knock-off of Rodeo Drive.
Posted by: Di at March 19, 2007 11:55 AM
One thing that I can't tolerate is the blanket concept of "Brooklyn vs Manhattan". There's only one or two areas of brooklyn that would even qualify in a value competition with Manhattan, and that part of Brooklyn is NOT one of them. It's not just about Manhattan vs Brooklyn -- it's about Manhattan vs. inconvenient and boring part of Brooklyn. No buyer here.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 11:57 AM
Yeah, good luck crossing the street in front of that disaster without being flattened by traffic. And I agree, the rendering is gorgeous but it's crap in reality, really cheap looking.
Posted by: Anon at March 19, 2007 11:59 AM
the complainers probably don't live in the neighborhood.
while this building may not be to your liking, it certainly does not look cheap. that is ridiculous to say...especially with all of the building going on in the borough that actually is cheap.
on a materials and finish level, this is probably one of the top 10 projects being built in all of nyc at the moment.
sounds like a lot of sour grapes that you can't afford to live there, but no matter how you slice it, this is a great building for the neighborhood. you don't need to like it or find it pleasing to your eye, but to have a building like this built here is a great great thing for brooklyn. embrace it instead of being such haters.
too much to ask for by typical brownstoner readers, i suppose.
Posted by: anon at March 19, 2007 12:08 PM
David is correct, but in relation to the perception of Brooklyn as a denigrated second choice, the dates would have to scale a bit earlier. For nearly 100 years prior to the Depression, it was Brooklyn that tended to look down on Manhattan in regards to residential opportunities. For most of the 19th Century, the middle and upper-middle classes aspired to Brooklyn as much as they did to the newly-minted Upper East Side; anything in downtown Manhattan was considered terribly declassé (especially Greenwich Village!), for only the lowest echelon. Once the Depression sunk in, the cultural shifts of the Jazz Age were both accelerated and undermined by economics. Then the War and suburban flight, which initiated a period of some of the most destructive "urban renewal" in history. Despite all of our own era's environmental and geopolitical troubles, we really need to recognize that this is truly a golden age for Brooklyn.
Posted by: Rascal at March 19, 2007 12:15 PM
The issue that is I see is no shopping that is within walking distance. It is not a 'short walk' to 7'th Avenue. You have to cross that traffic nightmare and it is creepy late at night to walk around the circle (as pretty as it is in daylight. Underhill near EP has nothing to offer but one restaurant and a bar, where do you buy food if you live there? C-Town?
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 12:16 PM
I need to stop reading comments at this site but can't. They drive me crazy. Why do I care what half-assed ignorant things people have to say - I don't. Maybe I can kick the habit. Wish me luck. Au revoir.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 12:16 PM
Hey BS - $1,200 psf an untested milestone for the Borough? I think not. Many condo transactions in Brooklyn Heights and Dumbo have occured way north of that number.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 12:16 PM
The issue that is I see is no shopping that is within walking distance. It is not a 'short walk' to 7'th Avenue. You have to cross that traffic nightmare and it is creepy late at night to walk around the circle (as pretty as it is in daylight. Underhill near EP has nothing to offer but one restaurant and a bar, where do you buy food if you live there? C-Town?
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 12:16 PM
That part of PS is not Dumbo/ BH/ FG/Wburg-- which are literally 10 to 15 mins into manhattan by public transport or bike, or a nice stroll over any of the 3 bridges. If a Manhattanite is gonna move to BK, he/she is gonna ease in at the perimeter, not dive head first into the babyspawning puddle that is suburban brooklyn.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 12:27 PM
The naysayers are just out of their minds on this one - it's a great building and a wonderful addition to the brooklyn condo explosion. I even love the way it looks from the long meadow of prospect park itself; initially i thought i would be offended.
These guys will do well and the buyers will get a great place to live - geez, the building is still under construction - give 'em a break! (and i think an interesting mix of europeans, manhattanites and brooklynites will buy in droves once it's finished.) Barring market gloom, I'll bet it sells 80 or 90% within the next year.
And, I actually could see GAP becoming a destination point, especially if they can figure out the plaza to make it more "pedestrian friendly." It's an absolutely spectacular entrance to PP, but right now no one can really explore it safely or easily.
just don't let the DOT come up with any more ideas...
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 12:28 PM
The folks buying in this building propably travel a lot, mostly use private car services, not the subway, and don't care too much about nearby ammenities.
They're rich folks who don't have the time or interest to renovate brownstones and assume they'll be decent investments that will appreciate over time with the improvement of the nieghborhood.
It's a building for folks who want to show-off -- not people interested in hanging out in the hood and walking to do their grocery shopping/restaurant excursions/bar hopping.
Posted by: Jake the Snake at March 19, 2007 12:29 PM
11:24 - it will definitly take a long while before the Bronx is viewed as favorably (locally and internationally) as Brooklyn, but you are way off if you think it will be 20-30 years before (large sections) of the Bronx are "viable" options for the people here.(it maybe 30+ years before anyone has the balls to ask $1200sq ft in the Bronx to be sure).
Many sections of the Bronx are already 'viable' (Kingsbridge Heights, Bedford Park, Morris Park, Throgs Neck, Riverdale and a few others). Sure the schools suck - they suck in most places in Brooklyn too, but the crime rate in most of the Bronx is lower now then when many parts of Brooklyn started to 'come up' and lower then what currently exists in many parts of Bed Stuy, Bushwick and PLG.
As for the sitgma of "The Bronx" - for sure it exists but certainly no worse then "Bed Stuy"(for decades), or "Crown Heights"(which had race riots in the early 90's).
Posted by: David at March 19, 2007 12:29 PM
first of all groceries...many many people in the neighborhood buy from freshdirect. i assume the same will be true in this building.
if you think 7th avenue is not a short walk, you either have one leg or are 80.
vanderbilt avenue has tons of great places. i believe mr. b even talked about it last week as being a new smith street of sorts. it's right outside the door.
this place is no farther from retail than meiers buldings on the far west side of manhattan.
you are paying for a lifestyle not proximity to ctown.
Posted by: anon at March 19, 2007 12:29 PM
Anon 12:16 You know not of what you write. I live a block and a half away from 1EP on Sterling Place and actually know and use the amenities in the nabe daily. One could do a lot worse for food shopping than this location. 7th Av is about a 5-7 minute walk, with two GAP crossings that are just not that bad. But if you dont want to cross GAP, the 24 hr Key Food and greengrocer on Flatbush are less than a 5 minute walk; Met Vood on Vanderbilt is consistently ranked as one of the top 3 supermarkets in NYC. Union Market and Blue Apron (on Union St at 7th and 6th respectively) are less then 10 minutes away and both deliver. Try matching that in Brooklyn Heights, PS south of 3rd Street, or anywhere in FG/CH.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 12:30 PM
Anon 12:29pm,
You're right. These buyers are looking for a lifestyle that has nothing to do with Brooklyn -- they want the cache of telling their friends they live in a Meier building and they want great views and everything to be brand new.
Not that there's anything wrong with that. . .
Posted by: Jake the Snake at March 19, 2007 12:34 PM
To the person who said:
"I need to stop reading comments at this site but can't. They drive me crazy. Why do I care what half-assed ignorant things people have to say - I don't. Maybe I can kick the habit. Wish me luck. Au revoir."
I agree. This site is toxic too much of the time. I feel like I need a detox, a bath and a good therapy session to rid myself of the posts here, and yet I visit this site too often. I'll try and cut back on my time here too.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 12:35 PM
12:29. I have to agree with you. The only reason I didn't consider buying in the building is the fact that they don't offer helipads and the nearest private airport is at least 30 mins away by porsche.
WTF are you talking about? This is New York, not Nairobi. People with tons of money actually DO WANT TO WALK AROUND AND SPEND IT. See: Tribeca, Dumbo, Lower East Side, etc . etc .
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 12:38 PM
Anon 12:38,
Believe it or not there are lots of wealthy people who DO NOT LIKE walking around.
Many of the folks who've bought new construction in Hudson Square/Far West Side are a better comparison.
Posted by: Jake the Snake at March 19, 2007 12:41 PM
"Tribeca, Dumbo, Lower East Side"
i'm not sure you've ever been to these neighborhoods. dumbo has no real grocery store...everyone has been wanting one.
people are anticipating the opening of whole foods on the les like it's the next coming.
and tribeca is very largely residential.
you literally gave the probably 3 most underserved neighborhoods in terms of wealth vs. services available so i am totally confused by your point.
Posted by: anonymous at March 19, 2007 12:41 PM
who wants to live next to what is basically a freeway? Doesn't matter how nice the building is, you can't move that road. Ugh.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 12:46 PM
We looked at the models in the Tribeca showroom and everything looked nice and clean and straight lines. But... there is so much glass that there is nowhere to hang anything in the apartment! Plus, and don't hate me for saying this but ... the school ain't that great there so imo, not worth it.
Posted by: Millie at March 19, 2007 12:50 PM
According to property records the developer paid $8,690,000 for the 21,331 square foot lot. He also paid $1,643,950 for air rights from the adjacent property owners. That's $51 a buildable square foot, which is a smashing deal.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 12:52 PM
freeway?? are you referring to eastern parkway. i don't agree. eastern parkway is gorgeous. not so unlike central park west.
and re: schools - i really think that we are probably talking more about older europeans, or nyc singles or couples.
i just don't see a ton of families in this place. and for 4mil, they can certainly send to private school. this really isn't the public school crowd they are shooting for.
at all.
Posted by: anon at March 19, 2007 12:56 PM
Millie, whoever buys here most assuredly will not be sending their offspring to PUBLIC schools.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 12:57 PM
12:50,
the people buying these places are not likely to face private tuition hardships, nor likely to send their kids to nyc public schools anyway, even though it would be truly awesome if the majority of them did.
more of that kind of moneyed infusion and socioeconomic mingling would only help to turn poorly performing schools around much more quickly. talk about social nirvana...
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 1:05 PM
oh no, didn't you know diversity means more poor people, not more rich people. keep up with the defintions.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 1:08 PM
If you read the previous thread - maybe it'll just be wealthy parents buying nice apts for their grown children in this building.
But more seriously, this is going to be a successful venture for the developer and a great place (if you can afford it). IMHO.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 2:23 PM
Hate...all of you people....so very much...can't stand it...any longer...hate....all of you....
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 2:24 PM
likewise, i'm sure...
Posted by: anon at March 19, 2007 2:28 PM
12:41 pm: I actually lived in two of those neighborhoods and work in one of them: restaurants, delis, bars, cafes, many crowding on the same block. Tribeca's a dining destination and the other two are a nuisance on weekends for all the rubberneckers and out of towners just millin around, drinking lattes. You should come visit one of these days.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 2:46 PM
The main problem I see with the building (which I think is in a great location and lovely to look at) is the size and layout of the apartments. I live 2 blocks away, and in my opinion, this location will be most appealing to families. There is a huge, underserved demand for true family-sized apartments in the neighborhood (if only someone would create it--or sell it--I would buy!). From what I saw of the floorplans (adjusting for the over-inflated sq. ft. estimates and the amount of useable space), these apartments do not fit the bill. I have a hard time seeing single folks paying these prices to live in this location, no matter how great I think it is. Perhaps neighborhood empty nesters would want to down size to these from a brownstone?
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 2:53 PM
yes, i'm quite familiar with the neighborhoods as well. lived for 6 years on the lower east side and my girlfriend lives in tribeca. not everyone who lives in brooklyn does so because they can't live in manhattan. i choose to live in brooklyn because i prefer it. try to not be so ignorant.
my point is that it's no further a walk from rivington street to a grocery store than it is from grand army plaza to one. it's actually a much farther walk. just like it's a few minute walk to nobu on hudson street from duane street but somehow walking the exact same difference from said property above to 7th avenue is a stretch?
new yorkers are lazy.
Posted by: anonymous at March 19, 2007 2:58 PM
I own a home in the neighborhood. I am glad the Atlantic Yards is coming to my community.
Posted by: anon at March 19, 2007 3:07 PM
The location is going to be an obstacle for some, since the services for someone who can afford to live there are not that convenient to the building.
But, the location is also a plus, since it is truly spectacular, with the Park, Botanic Gardens and Museum right there.
The views will be incredible.
I live right across the Plaza and think it's a great looking building.
Posted by: Eric at March 19, 2007 3:08 PM
i think people paying to live in a building like this are not all that concerned with delis, ctowns and liquor stores within walking distance. this is going to be a prime if not THE prime upper end condo in brooklyn. think the dakota on the uws or something along 5th avenue on the ues or the meier buildings on the far west side. none of these are near (i suppose i have a different idea of near...cause i view a 5-10 minute walk as near) services and it's a non issue.
i think people who spend 4 mil to be in brooklyn are not the do it yourself, wander around the neighborhood brownstone owners. different beasts.
we are talking about people who have things delivered, will stop and get food in manhattan before coming home, or would take a car to blue ribbon sushi on 5th avenue in park slope.
i just don't see them wandering up underhill looking to buy a pack of smokes. i mean...sure it'll happen, but i don't think this is the target audience.
Posted by: anon at March 19, 2007 3:16 PM
I don't think this project will sell well. People paying millions for the Manhattan style condo will want to live in Manhattan where the flashier action is ie clubs, restaurants, and well dressed fancy folk. I don't think you can argue that it's half off a Meier building; c'mon, he's not THAT popular. There are oodles of nice projects in Tribeca for this price point.
This doens't strike me as Brooklyn Family style either. IT doesn't compare to living in a Brownstone and having a yard for the same scratch.
Park Slope is faaar from Manhattan.
I agree with the poster who noted the ease of walking over the bridges to the city.
This location stinks. Yes, close to lovely Prospect Park, but soemhow it seems an island to itself, kind of like Astor place which did not sell well either.
I'll be watching this one.
Posted by: anon at March 19, 2007 3:46 PM
the 2/3 grand army plaza stop is literally outside the door of this building.
under 30 minutes door to door to midtown, i'd say 10 minutes tops to wall street. i don't think that's far.
if it is, you've got the Q train a couple blocks from here with access to union square in 10 minutes and midtown in 20.
if you'll be watching this one, perhaps you should come see the neighborhood first.
and this building is not in park slope. it's in prospect heights.
it will certainly sell...perhaps not at the current asking prices but it will sell.
Posted by: anon at March 19, 2007 4:00 PM
To 3:07 - you must be one of those people who is hooked on exhaust fumes.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 4:04 PM
hey, not every apt in this building is 3+ mil.
Plenty at 1mil range and people are paying close to that already. And this building is different, has special appeal.
Dolts that say too far from Manhattan, blah, blah ,blah, are ignorant or ignoring prices people (even from 'Manhattan') pay for homes in Pk Slope, Prospect hts.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 4:07 PM
The old saying goes that you don't have to be from New York to be a New Yorker. Increasingly, the same is true for Brooklyn in particular. For those with means, Brooklyn is less and less a "second" choice and more and more another perfectly viable option or even--wait for it--a preference. This building will not attract those who are dead-set on Manhattan nor, necessarily, those who are dead-set on living in a Starchitect building. But I do think there is both Brooklyn wealth and would-be Brooklyn wealth that will appear.
Posted by: rascal at March 19, 2007 4:08 PM
"I own a home in the neighborhood. I am glad the Atlantic Yards is coming to my community."
Wha....?
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 4:10 PM
Just wait until the first West Indian Day Parade.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 4:11 PM
Just wait until the first West Indian Day Parade.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 4:11 PM
not sure if the last comment is racially motivated or simply ignorant.
either is equally scary.
Posted by: anon at March 19, 2007 4:15 PM
yes, you have to like every dumbass look-at-me parade coming through your neighborhood otherwise you are a) ignorant or b) racist.
You twit.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 4:37 PM
4:37pm is a real estate agent who hasn't rented an apartment in six months.
My feeling is that 99% of trolls on this site are disgruntled real estate agents.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 5:17 PM
"I own a home in the neighborhood. I am glad the Atlantic Yards is coming to my community."
Here you go:
http://www.medicinenet.com/psychotic_disorders/article.htm
Hope this helps.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 7:05 PM
I weighed in earlier yesterday and I am going to buy an apt. in the Meier building. I now live directly across the street in 60 plaza. Keyfood is 2.5 block away. Met Food is on Vanderbilt a block and 1/2. Fresh Direct is always here. There are two great coffee venues on Vanderbilt 1.5 block away and a dry cleaner. The subway is two short blocks. I love this neighborhood. It's across the street from the park for crying out loud; the green market; the library, etc. I can take the subway to atlantic to go to the movies or theatre at BAM - it takes 10 minutes. I walk into the slope almost every day since I work from home and I like to take walk - I walk over to Flatbush and down Sterling right onto 7th avenue - 5 mins. at most. I have also looked at many apts and paying 950 for a 900 sq foot converted brownstone which will also have monthlies of about 1000 doesn't make sense when I can have a larger apt. (in the brownstones with a 1250 sq foot apt you will pay over 1 million - ie see the vermeil) and have the nice services and gym. It's a risk, but so is everything. Wish me luck. Kathy
Posted by: kathy at March 20, 2007 10:58 AM
congrats. i think it looks like a great building.
glad to see people in the hood are taking advantage.
have they told you when the building will officially open up?
Posted by: jm at March 20, 2007 11:06 AM
These comments are a hoot. I'm buying; it will be my second apartment, my first is in the other Meier building on Charles St. I couldn't care less about your silly versions of restaurants, coffee shops, and bodegas. Fresh Direct and a driver. View of the park. If you have to argue about the building's viability, it's not for you. Now stop bitching about things that don't pertain to you. The building will be full in a year and you all can stand on the sidewalk drooling and make fun.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 20, 2007 11:42 AM
Good luck, Kathy! This is sincere -- I think I'm a little jealous.
Posted by: debre at March 20, 2007 12:22 PM
we are like Kathy - we have lived in the neighborhood (a 3 BR on Eastern Pkwy) for over 5 years, and know its assets and drawbacks clearly.
We, however, are a family of 4. For us to get equivalent space (1800 sq ft) with a good sized terrace, it would cost 2.9M. So instead, for 1.3M we're buying a nice 3600 sq ft brownstone 3 blocks away.
I know apartment vs brownstone is an apples vs oranges issue, but that was our choice, as people who are looking for a residence, not a status symbol.
I find it hard to think that there are many families who a) can afford the price point for the larger units and b) would not prefer to live in Manhattan or a more 'established' nabe. As for the smaller units at better price per sq ft, the comment above about singles/couples/Euros is well taken - will they be happy here?
Again, I love the EP/GAP area and intend to spend the rest of my life here - but I do question the logic behind the marketing. They are playing long odds, trying to find 115 people who want the status of Meier and the hominess of Bklyn.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 21, 2007 9:02 AM
To JM and all the nice comments:
It's slated to open September 2008. I'm getting divorced and my kids are grown so I don't want a brownstone or the maintenance of one. I can understand that a family could not afford this. The universe smiled on me and I got lucky. Let's hope it is good for the neighborhood. Kathy
Posted by: kathy at March 24, 2007 12:52 PM
Congrats Kathy!
I think the building is fantastic. I just found this blog after visiting the sales office and was searching around. As for "just 12" units have sold, that information is unfotunately very outdated. The nytimes article, which is what first got my attention, was written around the opening of the annie liebowitz show at the museum, which as anyone in the neighborhood knows has long since closed. Among the apartments that are already sold are the ones that seemed like the best value. So, after running the figures on some of the two-bedrooms on a higher floor, I don't think I can afford to buy myself. Wish I could though!
One comment (not that any poster will read this late post) about groceries that I can't believe no one pointed out is: ***Farmer's Market.***
Posted by: Sam at April 21, 2007 10:07 AM
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