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June 15, 2007

Friday Links

Astroland, Coney Island. Photo by S. Reed.
More Trouble in Subprime Mortgages [NY Times]
No C, Partial L Train Service This Weekend [NY Post]
How Crown Heights North Downed Its Dealers [NY Daily News]
Stuckey Says He quit, Not Fired [NY Daily News]
$25M Rehab for Bed-Stuy Center [NY Daily News]
First Annual Anti-Gentrification Conference [City Limits]
Deal Is Struck To Cut Public Building Costs [NY Sun]
Rogue Renaming for Sonny Carson Street [NY Sun]
Editorial: Sayonara Stuckey [No Land Grab]
Fourth Avenue Rising Right [Brooklyn Paper]
Refinishing Parquet without Sanding? [Forum]

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Comments

This is great news for Crown Heights and speaks to the power of an organized community. This area has nowhere to go but up. The recent landmarking plus residents dedicated to ensuring a safe community will make Crown Heights and even better place to live.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 15, 2007 8:43 AM

Anti-Gentrification. Please, have they lost their mind? Can't the people "at risk" here focus on making the best of the education they have access to, find better jobs and keep up with the rest of the world? It makes me feel like I've lost my mind because I really just don't get it. It's not like everyone else is handed their paycheck, most people work hard to get what they have and hold onto it.... crazy.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 15, 2007 9:25 AM

The anti-gentrification assertions are ludicrous re: displacement of communities of color. Fact is the % of white residents of NYC continues to drop. All the media focus is on the so-called gentrification group - affluent white people- because the media is made up primarily of that group and published for that group.
The explosion of new immigrants to NYC is by far the biggest factor in competition for housing and escalation of rents in most of this city.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 15, 2007 9:44 AM

Congratulations to the people of Crown Heights North. All of that is wonderful news. Which should be encouraging for Eastern Fort Greene/Clinton Hill people who are fed up with the street action east of the rehab center on Fulton.

Posted by: donatella at June 15, 2007 11:06 AM

"Conference organizer Nellie Hester Bailey, director of the Harlem Tenants Council, cited the provisions of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights in telling the approximately 100 tenants, researchers and organizers gathered: “Housing is not an entitlement; housing is a basic human right.”"

But housing IN THE PARTICULAR NEIGHBORHOOD WHERE YOU PREFER TO STAY is an entitlement.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 15, 2007 11:31 AM

The net increase of population (natural increases due to longer life and births) and subsequent deficit of housing is pushing up prices of property and rentals in NY, despite national trends. The market has responded with a breathtaking amount of construction of new units all over NY City. It is this deficit that is making brownstone Brooklyn, which has beautiful housing stock, more attractive and more expensive. If one is an owner, one participates in the price appreciation. This price appreciation is what is making former owners sell at huge windfalls, leaving the new "gentry" to pay up and pass on higher costs to existing tenants.

That is the story. 11:31 is right about the right to stay put in the old nabe without regard to the economics of market. THAT is an entitlement for which somebody has to pay.

Posted by: anon at June 15, 2007 12:01 PM

I totally agree 11.31. I thought the exact same thing after reading that sentence. What a ridiculous sense of entitlement out of touch with reality.

Posted by: lp at June 15, 2007 12:12 PM

The gentrification issue is tough but I think the rhetoric of the conference attendees was unfortunate. The people of Darfur are refugees or the people in the former Zaire.

Yet, I can't imagine how tough it must be to be forced to leave a neighborhood your family has lived in for four generations. Some of these responses are callous--especially the "get a job" variety.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 15, 2007 12:37 PM

Brownstoner, I know you posted the link to the article about more troubles in sub-prime loans, but I thought this one which talks about rising rates and the trickle down effect may be a bit more educational for the folks that don't understand how it may adversely affect the real estate market.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/15/business/15bond.html?ex=1339646400&en=db01b83c1e252cd5&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink

Posted by: Anonymous at June 15, 2007 1:55 PM

Anon 12:37 how exactly are families forced out that have been there for generations. Either they own and can stay or sell and make money. If a family has been renting for four generations they have other issues.

Why won't someone subsidize me so I can live in Beverly Hills? I don't get it.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 15, 2007 2:35 PM

well of course you wouldn't get it 2:35. The sheer stupidity of claiming if a family has been renting for 4 generations they have other issues is incredible. Oh, I'm sorry- I guess you thought you had the intelligence and education to actually make a real analytical statement of worth. Let me correct you- you don't.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 15, 2007 2:45 PM

2:45pm sorry, you are just wrong. 2:35 is right on.

Posted by: condo dweller at June 15, 2007 2:50 PM

condo dweller- if you think 2:35 is right about people who rent, you are in the same ignorant boat he is. Sorry for you too. That's the trouble with arrogant fools like you who think they know everything because they have money. Just points up that you can't buy brains.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 15, 2007 3:09 PM

the reason i have a home is because my parents helped me with a down payment. because i chose to teach, i would never had made enough money to buy a wonderful brownstone in a nice neighborhood.

the only reason my parents were able to buy their house is because they purchased in clinton hill when it was cheap. fortunately for me, they have tons of equity. also they were lucky enough to have great parents with high expectations.

my home ownership is built on the back of my parents and their ownership on theirs. and my grandparents on theirs. we are lucky.

this luck does not give me the right to look down on people who have not been quite as lucky or who didn't have the sense to buy in clinton hill/ park slope/ft. greene, whatever, before it was too late.

some of my friends' families were sharecroppers while my family was snapping up brownstones. the deck is stacked in my favor.

so while i agree that there are issues of poverty /class that intersect with behavior, much of it is also due to dumb luck. or lack thereof.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 15, 2007 3:19 PM

uh lets calm down people. 2:45 care to address any of my points or all you got is "na na yer stoopid".

nothing is wrong with renting my point was simply that if you rent in a neighborhood for a long time it does not entitle you to live there forever. i've rented and been forced to move when i couldn't afford it any longer. its called life.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 15, 2007 3:21 PM

whatever you think about sonny carson and the right of the community to name its heroes--i question the wisdom of honoring someone who carries the weight of so much negativity. it seems to be that the people pushing this are of a certain ilk--a certain type of old school brooklyn activist who no longer speaks for many younger african americans although i do not doubt that that type of activist still speaks to/for many. most importantly, i KNOW that there is no ground swell, no clamoring to change the name of Gates to Carson. so who are these city council people representing? james abstained from the vote because she is at the crossroads of old and new brooklyn.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 15, 2007 3:31 PM

I was prpared to dis the Restoration-Bed/Stuy story until I read this:

"The neighborhood's brownstones are now drawing six-figure wage earners, the fastest-growing segment of the community's population."

This is astonishing and speaks to what the neighborhood needs--money,which I hope will spark the depest need of all--commerce. Restoration would have to place folks in jobs if the Avenues were bustling.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 15, 2007 3:37 PM

above post was mangled.

meant to say commerce would alleviate the pain of joblessness.

restoration would NOT need to do job placement w/ more commerce.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 15, 2007 3:39 PM

3:19,

So nice that mommy and daddy handed you your down payment. I'm a social worker and probably earn less than you do as a teacher, but I acquired a home the old-fashioned way: I worked hard and sacrificed and did it on my own. That's the central point of these posts criticizing renters.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 15, 2007 3:59 PM

So, anon 3:59, you and those who look down your noses at renters think that you're the only one who's ever worked hard and sacrificed and did things on their own? Well as a long time renter, whose parents and grandparents rented, I'll bet they and I have worked far longer and harder than you ever did or could. and guess what I did with the money I earn? Helped others who were down on their luck, paid bills and debts, taxes, supported family, went to college and a hell of a lot more- and made a decision not to buy a house because I simply didn't want to.

Just because your version of the American Dream means being a house owner, doesn't mean everyone else wants to. Youhomeowners may want to remember that when your looking for renters to pay your mortgage. I get such a kick out of you arrogant snobs who think money makes you better or smarter than anyone else. You can't buy class either.

As far as answering your points, if you notice, anon 3:21, my post mentioned only your simpleminded comment about renters. But since you ask- and I'm sure this will be difficult for all of you who think money is the only criteria for living- this was a City filled with neighborhoods, which are communities. Strong communities are positive influences, not only for the children who are raised in them, but for the economy and anything else that a city survives on.Because people who are part of a community have a stake in it and care about it.

I'm sure it shocks you people to learn that renters also invest in their communities and care about them. So I also imagine that since money is your only criteria for judging people, you of course do not consider questions of fairness or ethics in social interactions. Therefore I would rather not waste my time trying to explain to you why whether you rent or own a home has nothing to do with the person you are.

But maybe you can explain why you think having money entitles you to run roughshod over anyone you think is in your way. If you think being a homeowner makes you somehow better than people who rent, let me disabuse of the notion. It's people with your attitude who really screw up this city- and if owning a home means I have to become like you, I'll be renting til eternity.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 15, 2007 7:48 PM

"...and made a decision not to buy a house because I simply didn't want to."

Good for you. Would you agree that therefore, if you had to move because rents went up sharply in your neighborhood, you should accept the consequences of your own choice rather than claim an entitlement to stay there?

(I'm not anon 3:59, by the way.)

Posted by: Anonymous at June 15, 2007 8:27 PM

I understand the up & downside of home ownership and happily own. I can't be forced out of my nabe/community unless I default on my mortgage or choose to sell. Go ahead & rent as long as you like, I don't think anyone has an issue with that. However, don't start bitching when you can afford the rent increases. It is your choice to rent and so you should understand the up & downside to that choice. It's not our job as homeowners to preserve your stake in your community. One more thing: Ms. Goody 2Shoes, just because you chose to use your money to help people & I chose to save for a down payment doesn't mean and either one of us is better than the other, or that homeowners aren't philanthropic. This is all about choice. Take responsibility for your choice.

Posted by: tag482 at June 15, 2007 8:32 PM

Tag482- I have taken responsibility- and may i point out to you that it was a "homeowner" who made the first comments about people who rent. I am refuting those assertions.

Only an arrogant money-driven twerp such as yourself would assume anything about my life simply based on whether or not I own a house. And I certainly understand far, far better than you the ups and downs of renting. But obviously you, like some of your fellows on this thread seem to think money entitles you to everything.

In point of fact it is "gentrifiers" who feel entitled to do whatever they please no matter who gets hurt. Homeowners are only one part of a neighborhood- where would you people be without us? After all, you make money off of us.Rent out your top or basement floor so we can pay your mortgage, fill up your investment properties, etc. But people who have lived in a neighborhood for years, especially through its bad times and kept perservering- they've got sweat equity. If anyone is not taking responsibility for what they do, it those of you who think money gives you more rights than other people. In this you are confused- money buys you stuff. It obviously hasn't bought you wisdom or ethics or empathy.

You simply don't have the intellect to get the big picture about communities, neighborhoods or urban life. And I can't enlighten you because people like you don't care as long as they can buy what they want.

And do I detect an inferiority complex when you said,"just because you chose to use your money to help people & I chose to save for a down payment doesn't mean and either one of us is better than the other," ? No- it just means one of us is a hell of a lot more selfish and self-centered. And that would be you.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 16, 2007 12:39 AM

And let me add this one last thing, while you blithely talk about your investment in the community. I work and pay taxes. You get tax breaks- fine. My taxes go to pay for the roads I don't drive (no car), schools (no kids), infrastructure, cops, firehouses, etc. etc. etc. I supported local businesses when you wouldn't have spit in my neighborhood. I did community work -So where the hell do you get off telling me you are subsidizing my stake in my neighborhood? I paid for my stake. Long before you put your little grubstake down on your house.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 16, 2007 12:50 AM

Regarding Restoration and 3:47's comments - all of those 6 figure earners don't mean squat if they don't reinvest in the community. You are correct, that means commerce. Said commerce would be a lot easier if organizations such as Restoration, the Small Business Administration, and the city, would sponsor programs that would give tax and start up incentives to people looking to open retail and service businesses on Fulton St., such as bakeries, coffee shops, restaurants, book shops, and other businesses that would draw in the new money, as well as many members of the old community. As it is, the rents on Fulton Street are very high, and only those chain stores selling schlock seem to survive. (this argument could be carried to Fulton St. downtown, too)

Some of the great new businesses, such as Ibo Landing, Bread Stuy, etc are great models for success, but I doubt they could have started and succeeded on Fulton, because as ratty as it is, it justs costs too much to rent and do business there. Until Fulton St is a better retail destination, most of the new and old money in BS will be spent elsewhere.

Posted by: Sterling Silver at June 16, 2007 12:31 PM

Re: Gentification Issues and Conference (I couldn't be bothered to read the previous posts arguing etc...so I'm not posting in response to any of the above except for one of those 'get a job' type of responses early on).

I think racial and CLASS DIVERSITY within the same neighborhoods is vital to having a city.

I don't think people who don't like people of different classes and races living near them should be allowed to live here.

I'd bet 1/2 of new brownstone owners will leave the city before they are 60. So Brooklyn is a nifty transition for them, until they 'grow up' and make enough $$ from selling their brownstone to move to Connecticut. Some of us plan to stay here longer.

And what will happen to those that just barely make enough with daddy's downpayment to buy a brownstone --- and then the Slope gets too expensive for them? What goes around comes around. I bet before your time is done in Brooklyn, you become the victim of people richer than you moving into your neighborhood and you will have to sell.

Perhaps you'll make a killing and it will all be fine financially, but that's not the point. You will resent being 'removed' from 'your' neighborhood because it won't be your choice.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 17, 2007 8:25 AM

Chinatown is smack in the middle of expensive ass Manhattan and there are still loads of chinese people. What did they do? They bought alot of property back in the day and now chinatown is still filled with chinese, along with other asians, while being surrounded by a city which is much different.

Being a white male who moved here from outside of NYC (north carolina) I find myself in an interesting situation with being looked upon as a threat in many of the places I can afford to live in. Tough shit, everyones an immigrant.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 17, 2007 5:16 PM

Posted by: Anonymous at June 17, 2007 5:17 PM

Okay anonymous, then why not luxury condos in the South Bronx. That would be "economic diversity".

Please, just come out and admit you hate seeing white people in your hood.

Posted by: common sense at June 17, 2007 6:28 PM

I am white. And I make a lot of money. And I'm female. And I also am not from NYC (the Midwest actually).

I ran away, like many, from the Midwest to get away from people like you, and now you are all moving here....

Posted by: Anonymous at June 18, 2007 6:43 AM

This is white girl from midwest who likes racial and class diversity again:

I don't understand why a posting about anti-gentrification gets everyone so riled up and defensive.

I don't think it's just 'people who buy brownstones and renovate them' that the conference was about. If your neighborhood were lacking services and if you were forced to leave your property so that a developer could create condos or some business like CostCo, I can't imagine you wouldn't be upset or try to do something about it. It's only human.

I wonder why when a neighborhood gets popular it's only a choice between totally derilect businesses and buildings, and Starbucks and other useless boutiques (a la 5th ave in slope) and Commerce Bank?

What difference does it make to well off people who have no financial trouble if a family gets to stay in their rental unit down the block?

Posted by: Anonymous at June 18, 2007 7:31 AM

This is white girl from midwest who likes racial and class diversity again:

I don't understand why a posting about anti-gentrification gets everyone so riled up and defensive.

What difference does it make to well off people who have no financial trouble if a family gets to stay in their rental unit down the block?

Posted by: White Girl at June 18, 2007 7:31 AM

poor people dont like rich people moving in and screwing stuff up. Im white and I really dont enjoy luxary apartments.

Posted by: white guy at June 18, 2007 9:45 AM

Anon 5:17-there are several things about Chinatown you obviously don't know. Not that I expect you too- you're not a native New Yorker or someone who has been here long enough to know NYC that well. And coming from the south, the white south, I imagine (my own bias here I'm sure) that NYC is a bit of a culture shock to you.

Chinese immigrants were able to buy in areas that were cheap enough- Chinatown was one of the poorest areas in lower Manhattan historically. Like many of the immigrant neighborhoods of NYC, it was flooded with people looking for others of similar backgrounds. The fact that so many still live in Chinatown is historical- immigrants coming from Asia today still go there- many Asian societies are built on their extended family ties and unlike our present day society where money is the only tie, most immigrant groups take their family responsibiities seriously, extending to aunts, uncles, cousins, relative by marriage. So they feel a responsibility to help one another, find housing, food, schools, navigate the system- its a very stong community.they also pool their resources, which allows them to do community specific outreach in ways a City can't.

The character of Chinatown is very old and despite what you think, it's changing rapidly. Just like every other neighborhood in a "desirable" location, other people are moving in, building expensive condos, putting in expensive "upscale" stores- I've seen the drastice changes over the years. In another 10-15, Chinatown will be a remnant of itself - a theme park for the ever-hungry upper income bracket who wants location location location.

Posted by: resident of at June 18, 2007 12:24 PM

This city used to be a refuge against horrible fucking white people from North Carolina. Now a bunch of "anonymous" pussies think they are New Yorkers because why? Because they can afford to buy houses? You people are human cancer.

Posted by: Fortuna at June 18, 2007 3:17 PM

Ummm, well this "horrible fucking white person" happens to be quite interested in Brooklyn's Black community.

Anyway, I have no beef with the demogrpahics of Bed-Stuy, but I do have beef with people like Fortuna who think that NY is losing it's soul just becuase the demogrpahics are changing.

Last time I heard this kind of shit was when I was in.............................................................North Carolina...

Posted by: common sense at June 18, 2007 4:29 PM

I don't think NYC is losing its' soul because the demographics (the people) are changing.I think all NYC is losing out because we are pushing out the working class who are the backbone of any healthy city, and because we are making everything about money, including the right to live where you want. I certainly don't agree with Fortuna, who I think is simply trying to be outrageous in the hopes of bringing out the worst in people.

But if anyplace is a perfect illustration of the cycle of history, it's NYC. Every wave of immigrants replaced another. It's just that it used to be a more organic, natural process that happened over several generations. today its like a precise hit- and I think people are right to resent being told- as I've been told on this very thread- that since they have more money they have the right to force me out. Then I am the one called the person with an air of entitlement.

Too many people refuse to see the correlation between a good strong community and property values. And they don't seem to want to understand that a community can only be healthy if it as as broad an economic/social/cultural base as possible. We're in danger of seeing Manhattan and whole tracts of Brooklyn become ghettos for the rich. I can't wait til they start to build security walls with checkpoints so that us lesser folk can get in to clean their houses.

Posted by: anon 12:50 and 12:39: 6 16 at June 18, 2007 6:41 PM

I think you underestimate just how much working class exists and will always exist here. All I see in Queens in immigrant family after immigrant family. Once I saw your last post about checkpoints, your credibilty went to zero. UES doesn't have checkpoints. Neither does Tribeca.

I think white chick and Fortuna are what's at play here. Fake-ass, self hating white folk who are trying to escape suburbia by living in the ghetto. That'a all.

How about letting things change and watch it all settle out? Like how NY usually does.

Posted by: Common Sense at June 18, 2007 7:00 PM

well, common sense, who do you think the proposed pay to play toll will hurt most? I think you underestimate - or are perhaps ignorant- of the way this City changes and has changed over the years. I was born in the Bronx and grew up here- I think my credibility is a heck of a lot better than yours unless living in North Carolina makes you an expert on the "North."

If you had used "common sense" you would have understood the use of hyperbole to make a point. No kidding? Really?...No checkpoint in Tribeca- oh what was I thinking???!!!!! Ah, you literal minded folk- no imagination, no vision, no humor.I don't underestimate the power of the working class at all. I'm part of it. ANd New Yorker to the bone.

fortuna is a fake, but white girl? Why would you think she's a self-hating white person? It may surprise you to know that there are plenty of us white folk out here who don't like what's happening in these neighborhoods. not because we're self-hating or anything else other than concerned about the future of NYC.

So if you didn't get the hyperbole, I don't know how you think you are going to get the rest of it. As for my credibility- I think I have several shreds of it left- my degree is in anthropology/ social science. I've lived in Black or mixed communities most of my life,was married to a Black man for many years and presently rent from a friend who is Black. What are your credentials in? Posting to the web?

Posted by: anon 12:50 and 12:39: 6 16 at June 18, 2007 8:53 PM

Well, I too have dated Black people, so that's kind of a lame point.

As for your degrees, I really couldn't give a damn. Life is my only degree.

Here's what I know: None of you people gave a rats ass about this city in the 1960s as the beginning of the arsons in the Bronx took place. How about the heroin trafficking that destoryed Harlem? Or maybe the Crack Epidemic.

Yes, it's quite clear how much people "care" about these communties. Gentrifiers are such a threat. Not like the rampant racial barriers, or failing schools, or violent-culture claiming child after child.

Do I care about poor people, yes, I do. It's that care that makes me believe this is one of the best things to happen to Brooklyn in a long time. More money for the schools. More eyes on the street. More incetive for the NYPD to get off it's ass and shut down the dealers. More people patronizing Black-owned buisnesses.

There are countless working-class neighborhoods that will remain that way for a very long time. In all honesty, the amount of the city that is gentrified is very, very small. Maybe 5% of neighborhoods at most. I would say there are far more pressing problems facing inner-city minorites than some fresh light-skinned faces.

Maybe if some of you had seen the horror and destruction of the 1970s up close you would understand where I come from. Nobody, and I mean, nobody, gave two shits when much of what we now consider "Brownstone" territory was up in flames.

Where were you during the Crack era? How about "The Bronx is burning"? I know where I was, here, in NYC. Staying strong while fake-ass pussies fled for Nassau and Jersey. Which is exactly where I'll find you when you come face-to-face with the harsh relaites of urban life.

Posted by: CommonSense at June 18, 2007 10:17 PM

"Maybe if some of you had seen the horror and destruction of the 1970s up close you would understand where I come from. Nobody, and I mean, nobody, gave two shits when much of what we now consider "Brownstone" territory was up in flames.

I was here too, and I stayed while I watched many folks flee for the 'burbs...
Do our new neighbors have
the gumption and guts to stick out
the roller coaster "good times bad times" in NYC... I'm not too sure when I read some of the posts... it would be great if they did... the city could use an infusion of compassionate, bright, creative and brave spirits... again...

Posted by: bren at June 19, 2007 12:14 AM

Have big news for you Pal- I was here. I have seen. I lived through it. I was born here- in the Bronx, raised here- in the Bronx and lived here- in the Bronx and Brooklyn. so please stop spewing platitudes and assumptions like you really know anything. You were here, staying strong? - oh, well, my hero.

"Well, I too have dated Black people, so that's kind of a lame point."- if you read my post ( obviously Life is your only degree because you didn't learn to read), dating isn't exactly the same thing as my experience is it? So if that's your best shot, you just lost the pissing contest.

You seem to think putting a starbucks on fulton St. will improve the community. No- it will improve the quality (?) of coffee available in the area, but gentrifyiers are not trying to improve the quality of life for the community. they are trying to improve the quality of their investment by changing that neighborhood to suit themselves.And that causes anger and resentment- the same anger and resentment that burned the Bronx and Harlem and Brooklyn. And it was stoked by landlords who committed arson to empty their buildings. Your version of what happened in NYC is the white person's media history. Where did you live in the 70's? Harlem? Bed-Stuy? the Bronx?

Drugs that destroyed Harlem? Do you think dealers got rich selling to poor people in Harlem? No- they got rich selling to rich white folk who loved to throw coke parties and pill parties- it was the 70's. remember? And if you really did know anything about NYC, you would know that heroin was a "white thing" too. When it comes to drugs, it's an equal opportunity addiction.

Still and all, common sense- your hissy fit was amusing. Your little manly chest must be quite puffed up with the self importance of having stayed in NYC while the fake ass pussies fled.You are just so special.

Posted by: anon 12:50 and 12:39: 6 16 at June 19, 2007 2:29 AM

/\Ahhh....I get it now. So becuase you got it on with a Black man, you're now a civil rights expert. I see.....

I never said white people don't do drugs. They do a lot of them. That still doesn't explain what happened during that period. And Crack was certainly far more local. And arson?

...Oh, right "Anger and Resentment" burned down the bronx. No, how 'bout more like Section 8 fraud. But of course, it's not like "stop snitching" or "cash money" cuases ills, it's always "white people".

Believe me, there are many wonderful people living in these communites, but I think I'll take my chances with a hippie than Tony the pusher.

As for me, I was on Eastern Parkway and New York ave. I got a front row seat to the festivites that was the 1977 blackout. Where were you? Riverdale?

Thought so.....

Posted by: CommonSense at June 19, 2007 7:03 AM

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