Ideas for the Parlor Floor Kitchen?

I have been waiting for this thread my entire life (3 years). I have spent millions (hundreds) on design books and mags (can't afford an architect) and can't figure out how to blend the kitchen with the LR without it looking like a spaceship
landed in there. So, please hurry up and post your ideas so I can get finally some sleep!, Don't even get me started on the bathrooms! Thank you all in advance.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 26, 2007 11:35 AM

We're planning on doing the same to our brownstone so I'd love to see someone else who has done the same.

Our plan will have cabs on one wall, island in the middle and a dining room table on the other side.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 26, 2007 11:36 AM

I have been waiting for this thread my entire life (3 years). I have spent millions (hundreds) on design books and mags (can't afford an architect) and can't figure out how to blend the kitchen with the LR without it looking like a spaceship
landed in there. So, please hurry up and post your ideas so I can finally get some sleep!, Don't even get me started on the bathrooms! Thank you all in advance.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 26, 2007 11:36 AM

Hire an architect. This is a huge project. Why muddle through it and risk ending up with something that doesn't work? Architects are professionals who have done this many times and know how to get results. Just be clear about your expectations and don't be afraid to send them back to the drawing board. And listen to what they have to say, they will often think of solutions you would have never arrived at. And don't be too concerned about the additional cost. The expertise they bring will often save money in the end.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 26, 2007 11:42 AM

This is a very welcome addition to Brownstoner. Meanwhile, check out this link:http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/kitchbath/
I have found it be the best resource for consumer-to-consumer kitchen planning and design advice you will find on the internet or anywhere.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 26, 2007 12:00 PM

A lot of this depends upon the size and shape of the room. We did an L along the side wall behind the stairs running to the back wall and under the first window, with an island, leaving the other half of the room, the part mroe exposed to the LR, as a dining area. We chose openness and informality over the notion of a formal dining room.

It is hard to work from the books, because they all feature houses with more kitchen space, differently configured.

As for an architect, he was helpful as to what we could and couldn't do, but the ideas as to which walls to move and the overall shape of the kitchen were mostly ours. And we were complete novices.

Put your existing room on a grid paper and get familiar with dimensions (counter depth + 2', appliance widths, etc.) and decide how formal/informal you want to be.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 26, 2007 12:04 PM

I'm sorry, I cannot support the arguement of hiring an architect. In my opinion, they are nothing more than high priced artists. I think you'd be better served with a GOOD contractor and a friend with a creative eye.

I understand that all architects aren't created equal, but why should you have to cross your fingers and HOPE that you've found a more than equal architect?

After seing the nightmare that my sister went through with her architect, I opted to let my contractor and good artistic friend come up with the final design, and I could NOT be happier.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 26, 2007 12:28 PM

"here's the rub though, if you're having a dinner party, how do you keep the kitchen area from looking messy and cluttered while moving between courses etc...?"

surely your servants could clean up so as not to offend your aristocratic guests' delicate sensibilities.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 26, 2007 12:29 PM

Architects- too gay to be an engineer. Not gay enough to be an interior designer.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 26, 2007 12:33 PM

12:29, FUNNY! 12:33, EVEN FUNNIER! My engineer hubby is going to love that! He thinks he macho.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 26, 2007 12:40 PM

A bunch of raving anti-architectites.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 26, 2007 12:51 PM

My friends A list architect didn't place an outlet on her kitchen island, she found out after construction when the inspection did not meet code. He also did not allow for large platter storage which she needs because she entertains alot. Don't even get me started!

Posted by: Anonymous at July 26, 2007 12:53 PM

Two years ago I had to decide where to put kitchen, I chose the garden level, rear room that leads to garden/back yard. And chose an open floor plan for the garden level. Best decision. You can entertain in one continuous space from front of house to rear of yard. Bring groceries in to house is a snap no upward stairs. Taking garbage out is also easier. I can not see the full space from the pic but looking at the room with those size windows and probably two entrances to the room (one from living room and one to deck) it looks like you have limited cabinet space (after placing appliances and sink). On the resale side, Kitchens are high on the list. Small kitchens are a turn off. If you must use this space open up the wall from the living room. Place your sink near preferably under the window (but that big window is not a traditional kitchen window).

Good luck, need more pics.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 26, 2007 12:54 PM

Lady day,

I posted about the L. In our house, you can see the mess. We just opted not to attempt formality. Architects like to put a high ledge on the island to hide the dirty dishes, but then you can't really sit around it. It's a hub for us, well worth losing a formal DR area.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 26, 2007 12:56 PM

I'm not an architect, but someone who wishes I had hired one. We had a contractor run roughshod over us because he could - we didn't know the ins and outs about code and where things should or shouldn't go. we were both full time occupied and so had little opportunity for full time oversight. we ended up with weird placement of electrical, some real mistakes because of bad subcontractors - the list goes on. to ome extent it's just a case of a bad contractor. But the great thing about an architect is that they provide oversight in addition to design and permit help. they can fight with the contractor and know what they're talking about. you may be stuck on a corner and how to use it or a particular issue and they, for the most part, have had enough experience that they can come up with that solution, introduce you to materials you hadn't known about previously, etc...I have tremendous respect for good architects and wish we'd had one. next time we have enough money to fix things up, it will definately be with the help of an architect.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 26, 2007 1:19 PM

I designed my own kitchen with the designer on staff at the kitchen gallery where we ordered our cabinets and fixtures, and I'm thrilled. If you're knocking down walls yes hire an architect but if all you're doing is installing a kitchen, come on. That's a case of hiring an architect just to say you did it. The bubble is over, so we consumers really shouldn't be encouraged to spend so much simply because it's more prestigious to have spent a lot of money.

Back to ideas for this kitchen: with a huge window like that, install shelves across the window and put your crystal and glassware there. It gives you that storage space without losing the gorgeous window, and sparkles and is pretty. Next, open layouts always have those horrible "bars" at the counter with stools but do you ever see anyone sit there? Never. It would be better to put bookshelves underneath where the counter juts out into the living space. Better transition visually and conceptually, to living space.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 26, 2007 2:29 PM

We have an island with the sink in it in our kitchen/dining room which is in the back parlor. I chose an extra deep sink to hide dirty dishes during dinners with friends(not that it matters because our kitchen/house with 3 kids is in a constant state of clutter). While I'm doing dishes, etc. I can watch and talk to my kids while they eat their snacks and meals, or while they draw, paint, etc. I like the openness of the design -- our house came with the kitchen already there. The previous owners also put in a door to a deck which leads to the backyard and our barbecue grill. We're a bit short on storage because there's a half bath that takes up part of that back wall (which has the refrigerator and stove). My husband really did not want to remove that bathroom . . . But, on top of the regular cabinets against the back wall, we added glass door cabinets (about half as tall as the regular ones) to store decorative stuff that we don't use everyday. That's the advantage of having really high ceilings.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 26, 2007 2:30 PM

Another idea to transition into living space more gracefully, is to mix up the kitchen cabinets and fixtures in a more eclectic way. Just like your living room furniture is eclectic, in your home. You don't have to have everything in the kitchen all "matchy". That's overly conventional and not very fresh these days. Try designing the kitchen island to look more like a piece of antique furniture sitting there. And do the wall cabinets all glass or something fun and modern. Play with it.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 26, 2007 2:43 PM

Predictably, perhaps, I'll defend architects:

I tell my clients at the start: "there are going to be mistakes, and some of these mistakes are going to cost you money. My job is to minimize those mistakes."

If you hire an architect expecting you can just buy a kitchen like you would buy a car, you're going to be disappointed. Renovation is less like retail and more like the weather: not always predictable, and not always controllable.

--an architect in Brooklyn (I submitted some photos of this type of layout)

Posted by: Anonymous at July 26, 2007 3:05 PM

You can get a custom designed kitchen at a kitchen gallery, and hire an excellent, top kitchen contractor to install it, and in that way you're not "buying a car", 3:05pm. Those people provide good service and knowledge too. You're dismissing their contributions. Not to mention the contributions of the homeowners themselves, which since we're talking about Brooklyn, NYC means we're talking about a very creative community overall. Nearly everyone we know in Brooklyn is in the arts or media.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 26, 2007 3:10 PM

3:10

I am not dismissing anyone -- a top notch job MUST be the result of a fruitful collaboration between the client, the designer and the contractor. What I do take exception to is the idea that architects are not required because, e.g., anyone creative can do their job, or because, e.g., the National Electrical Code changed last year you should fire your architect for not knowing about the new outlet-every-15"-of-counter rule.

What architects also bring to the table--distinct from other designers or clients--is the ability to file a job with the Department of Buildings. Since kitchen renovations typically involve installing, moving and/or adding plumbing points and ventilation, they tend to require construction permits.

But quite apart from legalities it should be remembered that in an renovation someone has to keep an eye on the big picture. That person can be the client, or the contractor, or the architect, but ideally a combination of the three, as there are so many potentials for expensive mistakes.

--an architect in Brooklyn

Posted by: Anonymous at July 26, 2007 3:19 PM

OK--the wall and window pose some challenge. But, I had a similar problem in my place. We created a galley like kitchen that I will try to explain. So along the wall that would be visible to company/diners we placed the attractive applicances. In our case the stove and refrigerator, wine cooler and cabinets. From the picture it seems you have enough depth to do this without cutting into the doorway and window. Opposing this wall we have a row of base cabinets (but the part that faces out is boxed in with wood/trim similar to the room) with a slate countertop, a slate farm sink and the dishwasher. This allows us to talk to our company while cleaning up, yet they don't see you doing it per se and they can help clean up by just placing the dishes and such on the counter. On both sides of this island/coutnerspace/cabinet space (which is long and narrow, not square at all) we have entrances. Dimensions have to be handicap friendly by code - so like 28 inches or so. This also makes sure you dont cut into the window or door, no one crashes into it and it balances out the look. Lighting in this split kitchen/dining things is a pain. We centered a fixture in the middle of the room. In retrospect I would center it for each room.

I hope this is somewhat clear...

Good luck.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 26, 2007 3:22 PM

thank god i do not live in brooklyn
the dinner party scenario is vomit inducing

get a grip people

Posted by: Anonymous at July 26, 2007 3:24 PM

Off topic - Architect in Brooklyn - Is it possible to get an achitecture degree doing it part time over several years if you already have a job but want to change careers in ten or more years...?

Posted by: Anonymous at July 26, 2007 3:26 PM

Anon 3:24...can you not afford a Brownstone? Do you not have enough friends for a dinner party? Sounds like you need a life, little one.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 26, 2007 3:39 PM

We are working with an architect that we think is great, but I think kitchens are a specialty that needs a kitchen designer in addition. Or you can go to Ikea or other vendors who may offer help with design. Just check everything carefully, make sure you have room to open cabinets, oven doors, etc.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 26, 2007 4:02 PM

"Off topic - Architect in Brooklyn - Is it possible to get an achitecture degree doing it part time over several years if you already have a job but want to change careers in ten or more years...?"

Not easy. The only place I can think of that was doing this (back in my day) is the Boston Architectural Center.

--an architect in Brooklyn

Posted by: Anonymous at July 26, 2007 8:25 PM

We have always had a parlor floor kitchen (once a galley, now an open plan with big windows in the back.) The key to making it really great is to have access to the garden via a window, or better a door, that leads to an iron porch or other access to the garden.

See pictures at: http://www.5freedmans.com/renovation/

In our major reno (one we planned for and saved for, for years), we used an architect and also had a great contractor. (Luckily!) I think we saved time and money using the architect and she gave us ideas and knowledge (codes, regulations, etc) that we would not have had otherwise. (My husband is an artist/designer type, but the architect was able to make it a drawn "reality" that the contractor had to stick to.) But the contractor suggested a couple of practical things that the architect missed; that's the nature of the process.

If you go in ready to hate everyone and assured that you will be ripped off, you will no doubt end up feeling that way!

Posted by: Anonymous at July 26, 2007 10:34 PM

We did a U with the kitchen in the bottom of the U. Very, very efficient layout for 1 person cooking. If 2 people are cooking then the 2nd person becomes the asst. and hangs out on the outside of the counter. I only point this out because we actually cook in our kitchen not just gaze upon it. And we did very high shelving on the inner wall. That is okay but not used much. We have a pantry elsewhere on the floor (where the outer hall is divided off to make our floor private/next to the stairs to garden.) We have super high ceilings or else we would have done a hanging pot rack or something. We wanted the kitchen very tucked away so it didn't look like Capt. Kirk was going to take command in the rear, middle of our parlor. Good luck and gather ye delivery menus!

Posted by: Anonymous at July 27, 2007 9:50 AM

Great pics 10:34! I really like how you/your crew thought outside of the box with the placement of the stairs. Very nicely done.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 27, 2007 10:58 AM