Green Church Can't Go Co-op... Yet

Here is a response to Benson’s (5:59pam) post from the Green church Thread:
“Captioned” is what he said.

“Oh please, I just can’t take this any more.”
– You can’t take it? Can’t handle it?

“BRG: you are unbelievable.”
– That’s what some will say. Many will say I’m believable.

“Most days you’re thowing out silly, near-juvenile posts left and right.”
– I have to disagree with you on this. Most days, I’m throwing out witty, amusing and cleverly crafted posts. You miss to see my writing talent. Maybe, you’ve seen it elsewhere and appreciate it there.

“Today I suppose you think we should now all bow our heads in sorrow while you show us your despair at your pet project. “
– No, I don’t suppose that of anybody. If YOU want to bow your head to me that’s up to you. I am worthy of it, though.
I have taken up several other pet projects. Would you like to discuss them?

“I find it incredible that you would accuse a pastor of fraud without offering the slighest shred of evidence. “
In my three posts, not once did I use the word ‘fraud’”
– I am incredible!

You want a shred of evidence. I’ll photo copy the boxes and boxes full of information amassed over the years during this battle. You pay for copying and shipping. Hire a detective, maybe you’ll find evidence of ‘fraud’.

“Anyone who would accuse someone of fraud without the slightest evidence, simply because they didn’t agree with their view on an issue, is simply a malicious person, and I question those on this thread who didn’t call her on it.”
– I am hardly malicious…maybe fallacious, but always Delicious (NOW, that was a witty remark).
You’ve called me out. I guess, no one will question you, now!

“Finally, I wonder how many of the folks who wrote a post in this thread had actually seen how this church was situated.”
– Yes, I wonder. Many should have seen this church before the wrecking ball. But, I’m sure many just by looking at photos appreciated the architecturally integrity. I believe it was the only structure in NYC to use Green Ashlar stone in a ‘Serpentine’ effect, dubbing it a ‘Green Serpentine Façade’

This church was situated like many others in NYC. Actually it probably was situated better than others. It was on a huge corner lot. 4th ave about 200’ frontage, Ovington about 175’. There were three (3) buildings on the site. The demolished church (on the corner), to the south on 4th Ave. is the 2 story school building (still standing), and on Ovington Ave. there was a three story townhouse, used as the parsonage (now destroyed).

“A word commonly used in Brownstoner is “context”. In that regard, this church was completely out of context. “

Says who? YOU?
So, I guess a lot of churches in NYC are out of context. Some stand on full blocks, some on corners and some between tall buildings. Let’s tear them all down.
What, Benson, for a church to be contextual with its surroundings, it needs to be freestanding with tracts of rolling hills surrounding it.
This is NYC, appreciate its diversity.
Or maybe, churches are no longer contextual in NYC….let’s tear them all down.

“The blocks of 4th Ave north of this church is filled with complete 1920’s commercial schlock buildings, complete with tacky shops.”
– And now on this site will rise a 21st Century Schlock!

“To the south 4th Ave is filled with 4 and 6 story apartment buildings that form a nice line-of-sight – except for the church. “

Let’s see, if you stand in front of the church, okay empty lot now, with a big ‘for sale’ sign and look north:
What is that I see diagonally across from it??…ANOTHER CHURCH!!!!
Head north, all are 3 story bricks with storefronts, except one 4 story building, south of the other church.

Let’s head south shall we:
You’re right about the 4-6 story apt. buildings. 4th Avenue is lined with them…but wait, Is that a steeple and another!
Standing on that corner, looking south at all those buildings my line-of-sight is interrupted by a church on 73rd Street (OLA), and then Bay Ridge Prep School on 74th and 75th Street ANOTHER CHRUCH.76th street, a Victorian on the corner (now a daycare)…and next to that, you want to start talking about the two Victorians that were just torn down.
Holy, Toledo, all these different structures are starting to look like apartment buildings to me!

By the way, I’ve heard the word ‘schlock’ once before, years ago.
Truthfully, I had to look it up.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/schlock
I now understand you, you are so well versed in this term….low quality or value.

Why not take a walk on 4th Avenue and really look at the buildings. There are many with great details. Columned entrances, interesting brick patterns, decorative freizes, etc. There’s a couple of buildings in the Art Deco style. So, rub the ‘schlock’ from eyes and look around you.

“This church was completely out of context in this environment.”
– Yes, you are the authority on contextual design as evident from you previous accolades extolled on Feder homes.

“It looked like exactly what it was: a decrepit structure from the days when Bay Ridge was a rural community. It looked so completely out-of-place on 4th Ave in that area.”
-Again, spoken by an architectural critic like yourself, with a fine eye toward the highest standards of design.
Decrepit – Do you have any evidence of that?
It was so decrepit, that it was on the National Register of Historic Places. I guess they don’t have any guidelines when placing structures on the list!

“At least I’m not the one who accuses people of fraud simply because someone doesn’t agree with me, in -between my silly posts on total nonsense.”
-Benson, you and I don’t agree. You are a ‘fraud’!

“Moreover, I make comments on sites I have actually seen.”
-I now think you were the one guiding the wrecking ball.

Bob;

Surely you must know that there are laws on the book as to how a church’s assets are to be disposed. Accusing a pastor of lining his pockets in such a sale IS an accusation of fraud, which is a serious matter.

I am becoming sickened by the commentary on Brownstoner, which, in my opinion, has degraded substantially since Lisa came along. You talk about religions: YOU have become like zealots. There are no shades of gray in this commentary. It is an “evil” decision. How simple-minded is this commentary? For Pete’s sake, Lisa and Borwnstoner don’t even contact the pastor to hear their side of the story.

Now, the Borwnstoner community has gone beyond the point of wishing ill to those who disagree with you. You are now even saying “Amen” to people like BRG who flippantly accuse people of fraud in a public medium. This is grounds for a libel lawsuit, and I frankly have a good mind to show this commentary to the congregation. Perhaps they’ll teach BRG a lesson she deseves to have taught. She would casually try to destroy someone’s reputation, and it probably doesn’t even faze her this morning. She’s probably trading jokes with DIBS or Biff today about truffles or dildos, whatever topic suits them for the moment.

I’ll also tell you that my respect for you and Montrose has gone way done after seeing this thread. Though we’ve rarely agreed on anything, I’ve always respected your integrity. No more – when you abet someone like BRG in casually trying to slander some one.

The di$grace sign says it all.
How true.
How sad.
How depressing when evil forces take over the conscience of a congragation and steers them towards Dollars instead of towards Grace. So many were willing to help.
It is the pastor here who bears the most blame, but so too those in the congregation who felt that a little money was superior to the preservation of their ancestors’ place of worship. Something so unique lost for something so ordinary. A shame. A disgrace. Satan wins.

BRG, and others, I’m with you. What a shame, and a loss for Bay Ridge, and Brooklyn. Karma, indeed.

The only bright spot is that these losses sometimes prevent future teardowns, as they serve as horrific examples of preservation opportunities lost to the wrecker. I hope nothing else this unique and special is on the block.

Yes, BRG, I know you’ve been very involved in this and was supporting your statement that it’s been a multi-year fight, not something that’s been going on for a matter of weeks.

I also have little sympathy for the parishioners or the pastor and I like cmu’s proposal regarding the automatic landmarking of buildings of significance. Sure, that’s a subjective call and the significance of every old building torn down could be debated, but, at least in my mind, it would be near impossible to argue this church was not significant from an architectural and historical perspective.

It will be hard for those in the community to stomach looking at whatever is eventually built on that site; just as I’m sure it’s gut-wrenching looking at the hole that’s there now.