Utopia in the City
Someday, Brooklyn will be “a place where neighbors sit down to share meals several times a week, where children roam freely from home to home, and where grown-ups can hang out in a communal living room.” Okay, maybe not all of it, but at least the swath in Fort Greene selected to become Brooklyn Cohousing,…
Someday, Brooklyn will be “a place where neighbors sit down to share meals several times a week, where children roam freely from home to home, and where grown-ups can hang out in a communal living room.” Okay, maybe not all of it, but at least the swath in Fort Greene selected to become Brooklyn Cohousing, reports the NY Times. As we reported at the end of October, the group of 14 member households, who’ve bought in at $20,000 to $40,000, and 25 associate households, who paid $500 and attend regular meetings, decided to build their paradise at the former St. Michael’s church property, an unfinished 40-condo project that had been known as Carlton Mews. “The group hasn’t settled on a project name yet, but it plans to build more modest apartments than the original developers intended and to fill them with families whose lives revolve around the courtyard and 6,000 square feet of common space where residents can cook together, play together, do woodworking or take an art class together,” they write. Folks will have to get along here, with 40 families making decisions that affect everyone (size of group dining room or common guest rooms, finishes in private kitchens) by consensus. The economy’s downward spiral may have given the project a boost, even though the units, from studios to four-bedrooms (smaller than average, since there’s shared common space), will sell for “market rate.” “A developer who can sell an entire project to a single entity runs a lower risk than one who has to sell individual units. Banks may also appreciate that while a developer may have trouble selling unbuilt condos, the cohousing group expects to sell almost all of the project before construction begins.” But the project is admittedly a financial risk. You’re not buying an apartment, said one of the founding members, Alex Marshall. You’re becoming a legal member of a community and sharing in the costs and risks of building it.
A Village Down the Block [NY Times]
Heather,
Regarding what you wrote about Carlton Muse: I have to respond reminding you that I am not part of the cohousing group. I simply attended an orientation. But, I am very familiar with cohousing across the country since we are interested in maybe moving out of NYC at some point in the not too distant future.
I would not write off cohousing because this project seems expensive to you. Cohousing across the US can be on par, and even cheaper, than regular “go-it-alone” kind of housing and the value can be much greater to the resident/community member.
With Carlton Muse, since I have seen the plans, I can say the apartments are not that small at all. I don’t think that many people in NYC and our area of Brooklyn would call a two-bedroom floor-through “small” unless they’re used to living in a duplex or loft. The apartments are nicely sized.
I have to say that I don’t know if this project is right for us at this time but I like the idea of being able to have a photocopier, fax machine and other office support things within my building, to have a elevator in what would normally be a walk-up height townhouse (the knees, the knees!!!), to have a huge kitchen where I might be able to do canning and make my preserves AND have people who can be involved (i.e. “help”) and kids (and adults) who can learn. There will also be a music space and many musicians living in the complex which would be a plus. The function room will be large and residents might be able to host their events since community dinners will only take place a couple of nights per week. There are all sorts of other features the group is working on.
Now, one would argue that your “gated community” is the story for most of NYC. Each home and certainly each apartment house, big and small, rich and low income, is “gated”. This project, from what I can see, will have many openings on the streets. The townhouse side on Carlton Avenue will have many stoops and entryways just like regular townhouses. The Adelphi side with the church will be different and will keep the streetscape much the same.
It not like a gated community which many coop/condo towers are in Brooklyn where you pass by a security guard just to get onto the grounds.
The social contract is such that, yes, it may appear to you the city’s residents “co-exist pretty harmoniously”…some would beg to differ with you. You’re are more privileged than you realize. Though you’re bemoaning the possibility of not being able to afford to live in the complex, you haven’t even put your toe in the water to find out more.
Now, something you should know, by pooling resources up front, it might be possible the group, like other cohousing groups in the U.S., will be able to aid those who have fewer resources. Often members of a cohousing group who have been working on the community all along may not be able to get a bank loan or come up with a full down payment at the time of move-in. In many cases, the group’s members who have more resources will aid those who need help. This is something you will probably NEVER see in any other kind of social (non-institutional) grouping in this country.
Cohousing groups have been known to do all sorts of creative things to get their members in a home. Sometimes a disabled member on SSI with tight income and net worth restraints and thresholds for Medicaid/SSI eligibility will find the community will buy that person’s unit and hold it in common so the person can “rent” it from the community. Some cohousing communities have members putting up thousands of dollars extra each so units can be affordable to lower income households.
Lots of things are possible when people work together. I know that the last couple of years have been much about aspirations to “modernity” and the alienation that goes along with everyone’s own little well-appointed domain. There has been a huge upsurge in vanity and frivolity these last years. Maybe it has to do with the boomlet establishing households and a sense of independence mixed with easy credit and materialism/consumerism. Better minds than mine can ponder this one.
But, now is the time we have to get down to brass tacks. The people who are involved in this cohousing community are creating something positive. It might not be right for you, but it may be a positive experience to its members who might otherwise find themselves paying the same amount monthly to live in a similar “regular” apartment without all the amenities of the community. Plus, with any luck, the cohousing community will serve as a greater community resource and incubator.
Why not go check out the orientation or at least their website and the links to other websites?
I’ve been considering leaving Brooklyn because, although I have a lot of friends here, even some very close ones, I don’t have a good support network for raising a child. I’m just starting out as a parent, and can see the huge benefit of knowing one’s neighbors well. Short of living among extended family, having a close-knit community of neighbors seems ideal for childrearing and also for people in other circumstances who need or want to feel like they are part of a community. Hopefully, the benefits of getting to know and trust the people living around you would outweigh the burden of having to deal with their idiosyncrasies. It’s certainly an anomaly, especially among the economic class of people who could afford to live in this cohousing development, to have that kind of connection with neighbors in this city and in most places in this country.
Other people’s kids ARE annoying, especially if you don’t know and care about them enough to get past their childish behavior, and that’s true even if the parents are doing their job well. But the whole point of living in a place like this would be to know your neighbors. They will still surely be irritating, probably quite often, but I think that might be better than the alternative– not knowing or caring about the people next door and just trying to shut them out as much as possible while living stacked on top of one another. I’m not sure about this, but I think it is an interesting possibility and I’m glad people are here making it happen. It’s also a very cool space, and if I don’t live there, I’m hoping it will be a stop on the FG house tour.
Like I said, best of luck with that?
But, look… it’s like we already live in a community. One of the things that makes it interesting is that it is filled with widely divergent people, with all sorts of ideas about things and we all co-exist pretty harmoniously. I feel like what you’re shooting for here is the appearance of diversity, without any actual (read: economic) diversity. You want to live in a bubble in an urban environment.
Maybe that’s too harsh, but I can’t quite get over the whole, “invest $50K now and you may never see it again, but if you clap your heels two times and believe…” thing. Who can afford to do that? Maybe I’m just envious of the way your finances let you make these kind of pie-in-the-sky choices, while most of us toil along. Maybe that’s it. I do realize that there’s no other way to build something like this from scratch than to have investors. I know Brooklyn is expensive too. But it’s a ton of money for an ideology in a neighborhood filled with existing co-ops, many of which that have quite nice amenities already.
And how does a shaded yes work, exactly? Do you then learn that your neighbor down the hall is grudgingly agreeing to the wine cellar, even though they hate the stuff? Do you then resent him when it doesn’t go through?
And who in New York that has all this money has the time for this anyways? Weekly meetings? Where people talk about their feelings? (That’s from the Times article.)
I think what this will end up being more like is a gated suburban enclave, with smaller-than-average living spaces and scary-ass rules. I’m sorry to be negative, but if this was actual middle-class housing instead of some romantic ideal of it created by people with extremely deep pockets, I’d be more enthusiastic.
It is an apartment complex with sellable units in a HIGHLY desirable NYC landmarked neighborhood. As people leave, they will sell their units/shares, either to an existing member who wants a different apartment or one of their friends/family who wants one. Cohousing houses, townhomes or apartments have a ready market and little problem selling. Or, something not likely to be easily done in regular NYC buildings: members can swap apartments. Say, if a single mom becomes an empty nester and does not need a two-bedroom apartment. She can swap it out with a household that needs a home office or has a new baby. She can downsize into a studio or one-bedroom, pocket the difference, stay in the same building/community, avoid broker’s fees, etc., etc., etc. This is very intelligent household management. I know many people who have found themselves basically forced out of a neighborhood they loved and lived in for decades, sometimes help build up. It can be a sad and difficult process for them and their friends. Sometimes those on fixed incomes are forced out because real estate taxes grow by leaps and bounds.
I look forward to hearing more about the progress of the Brooklyn Cohousing group and am very excited they’re in my neighborhood and will fix up that decrepit church and do something with that open lot that had been derelict since I can remember. The developers who bought the church didn’t make a go of it but I guess they’re getting their money out of it because the cohousing group and their well-informed consultants, architects, lawyers et al see how terrific and well-suited to cohousing this property is.
Best of luck to them!
Goodness gracious! I don’t think anyone bothered to read the NYTimes article closely much less visit their website or read up anything on cohousing. Sam and BayridgeWoman were particularly quick in their snap judgments today.
This is NOT communal living.
This will basically be an apartment complex with studios up to 4-bedrooms apartments nicely appointed with kitchens and baths. It’ll be a coop/condo complex with a twist Part of that twist is that it is not the same spirit or idea of a coop where people move in and expect to fight. It is an intentional community from the get-go. The people are building a community BEFORE, the place is built FOR them. Many of the things that become hot button issues in condo/coop situations will be worked out beforehand and there will be strong mechanisms for handling conflicts, new ideas, etc.
There are many aspects that would not normally be built into a complex of this scale. There will be underground parking and the communal space will be above and beyond what many coop/condo complexes would ever have: music room, wine cellar, woodshop, activity rooms for kids, office center for those who want to rent an office and have all the necessaries at hand, artist’s studio, guest suites, restaurant type kitchen, huge dining room, bike parking, a large, safe outdoor space, a roof deck with Manhattan views, an adults only lounge, enclosed courtyards for reading/chatting.
It will be apartment living in many ways and people can be involved to the level they want to be involved. In cohousing you can participate in community dinners and weekend brunches if you want, or opt out.
You know that your house will be safe when you’re away for vacation or a sabbatical abroad. A neighbor you trust might be able to water your plants and deal with your mail, possibly feed your cat, deal with the litter box, or walk your dog.
And yes, there will be children. There may be many people available to baby-sit.
Though the complex is not huge, there will be three elevators in different locations for those with mobility issues.
This $30m+ complex is to be built to a high level of quality, finishing, and energy efficiency, not by a developer looking to maximize curb appeal while skimping and cutting corners just passing future added energy costs or poor workmanship onto buyers. The association is the developer in a sense so their construction dollar will go farther. This is not a low-income project. It is not a commune where people are moving necessarily to live cheaply. It seems to me from reading about the project and attending an orientation meeting it might be rather expensive upfront but will be cheaper in terms of maintenance and other costs. The large pool of money will allow for very professional landscaping job and serving of the buildings. Yes, there are mixed-income cohousing urban complexes here and there. Dealing with the cost of Brooklyn real estate, this group cannot be low-income.
So far, the project appears to have a wide mix of people and family situations. There are young children, some on the way, much older kids, seniors/retirees, single people, couples. It does not appear to me to be toddler-heavy at this point. To those who seem to fear all children, there are many delightful children in the world. All of you reading this were (or still are) children. There was much too much child hatred in the above comments today. I can understand people’s frustration with unruly, misbehaving, loud children who are seemingly overindulged and have meltdowns in public. But, even if you do not have children of your own, living around children might help you understand something about yourselves.
Again, from having attended an orientation, I can see the group is fairly heterogeneous. There is no obvious ideology except for participants wanting a more sustainable living situation that is less resource intensive, safer, more convenient, interactive and social.
With any luck, the final community will be open to the wider community and serve as a powerful Fort Greene resource. The project seems to have a LOT of money behind it and the buildings are probably going to get built. For quite some time I have been thinking about selling our house and having a nice easy apartment to deal with. There comes a time when stairs and cleaning too much stuff is aggravating along with all the other things that go into being a homeowner. As you get older, a “complex†starts to sound kind of interesting. Having to clean 20-30 windows does not.
Because we have been looking into some of the types of cohousing complexes around the country and thinking about leaving New York City, I have been doing research on them for a couple of years. Typically, in cohousing groups and communities across the US and Europe, the voting system does not throw away ideas that are not “agreed to” 100%. There are shades of “yes” and “no”. You can vote stating you agree to letting something go forward but have reservations. You can vote that you absolutely want something. You can vote that in no circumstances can you agree to something because you believe it will not be in the long-term interest of the community/finances/building structure. This is basically the main type of veto. Many things that people are not thrilled with they may give a shaded “yes” vote on so things do not necessarily stagnate with this kind of consensus voting system.
Again, the comments on this thread were not very generous. A number of the naysayers today might not even be able to afford to live in the complex. Many of the people who are members and attending the meetings appear have some personal wealth and/or are selling their brownstones and apartments to live in this cohousing complex.
It will be a wonderful place to live, and unlike, as someone brought up, a commune or Shaker community, it does not have to replenish itself per se. It is not a farming ecovillage in the countryside.
I agree with other comments and say, not for me. i am on my coop board too and it takes a lot of hard work to make these cooperative communities work. everyone is self interested and don’t do anything unless something directly impacts them. so…dogs are ok, as long as the dogs don’t live above me. or, i don’t mind kids, until they are next door and up early or unless they are mine. i’ve seen rational people get crazy about things like, dripping water from AC, music being played, smoking, rug coverings, kids running…etc. Not, “let’s talk it out” but CRAZY, like lawyer calling crazy. But I wish this group good luck. Maybe they can teach us a thing or two….
It’s very interesting reading the comments in this thread. My question for you is this: how would you feel if this group (40 apartments with communal living arrangements) were settling on YOUR block? Would you be concerned at all, and if so, why? What are the good points and bad points about having cohousers as neighbors?
This not not in any way socialism or communism. It’s just a really, REALLY annoying coop.
i lived in cooperative housing when i was in college. i’ve experienced it, along with consensus-based decision-making, and i would never do it again and certainly not as an adult with a regular boring office-hours-required job, children and other grown-up responsibilities. there’s no insult, judgment or ridiculing involved in saying “not for me” and it has nothing to do with shaggy tomato plants. for me, it has to do with the brutal requirement of consensus before any “official” action can be taken, when the reality is that the unofficial decisions of many other adults (with different habits, tolerances and preferences) can radically alter my quality of life. for me, the ways in which this tension did/could alter my life negatively (dirt, loud music, sketchy people, substance abuse, verbal abuse, lack of security of person/property generally, even something as “minor” as poor role modeling for a child) far outweighed the ways in which it could/did alter my life in a positive way. then add to this the sheer grinding annoyance of construction/renovation related decisions multiplied by however many stakeholders…again, not for me, no way.